Best live sound: mic for amp or DI?

[Les Fret]

I use a Fishman Full Circle in combination with a Platinum Pro.

When playing through a PA what is the best way to go to send your signal to the FOH? Have the sound man place a mic for your amp or use the DI of the Platinum Pro (XLR out) or use DI from the sound man for the FOH and send that signal to the Platinum for you own on stage sound?

I am not talking about the on stage sound but what is the best to get a good sound for the public and also what is the best for a sound man to work with.

[anonymous02282011]

I usually just let the sound man do what he wants. The good ones know what will sound best, so I just let them do their work.

[Keyser Soze]

Originally Posted by adbass

I usually just let the sound man do what he wants. The good ones know what will sound best, so I just let them do their work.

This is some of the best advice I've ever read on these boards.

Creating a relationship with the house (or sound company) sound man based on mutual respect (including a little deference on the know-it-all bassist's part) will not only pay dividends that are immediately evident but also will continue to pay dividends gig-in, gig-out, year-in, year-out.

You're there to play the bass, he's there to make it sound the best he can. Strength in numbers.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by Keyser Soze

This is some of the best advice I've ever read on these boards.

Creating a relationship with the house (or sound company) sound man based on mutual respect (including a little deference on the know-it-all bassist's part) will not only pay dividends that are immediately evident but also will continue to pay dividends gig-in, gig-out, year-in, year-out.

You're there to play the bass, he's there to make it sound the best he can. Strength in numbers.

In theory this is great but I certainly know I've played some big rock clubs where the douche behind the board has never even seen a DB before and just wants to treat it like a big EB. I've had the opposite experience too but in the end you have to be an advocate for yourself. You should educate yourself on how to get the sound you have in your head.

[Marc Piane]

Most soundmen that know DB will want a mic and a DI. I prefer to just stick a SM58 in the afterlengths. I've tried a bunch of mics and this setup seems to suit me best. The 58 sounds good, has really good rejection, they're inexpensive, and every soundman has a plentiful amount. Sticking it in the afterlengths works for me 'cause I move around. I pad it with a little rag to prevent rattles. IME micing the f-holes is a recipe for a really boomy sound and more chance of feedback. While I will give the soundman both I'm pretty adamant about him/her using as much mic as possible and support with the DI.

[Les Fret]

Originally Posted by fingers

In theory this is great but I certainly know I've played some big rock clubs where the douche behind the board has never even seen a DB before and just wants to treat it like a big EB. I've had the opposite experience too but in the end you have to be an advocate for yourself. You should educate yourself on how to get the sound you have in your head.

exactly! I don't trust most sound men when it comes to getting a good DB sound. Since most of them are not used to mixing a DB.

But your answers didn't answer my initial question:
what do you think is better for the sound in general, micing the amp or using the XLR out of the Platinum Pro?

I am not talking about micing the bass. This doesn't work in the loud situation that I mostly play in.

[jrlynch]

Regardless, I would still provide a mic signal, as well as a DI. That way the sound man has both signals to play with. I see no point to micing an amp, unless you're looking to capture some cabinet related distortion.

jeff.

Originally Posted by Les Fret

exactly! I don't trust most sound men when it comes to getting a good DB sound. Since most of them are not used to mixing a DB.

But your answers didn't answer my initial question:
what do you think is better for the sound in general, micing the amp or using the XLR out of the Platinum Pro?

I am not talking about micing the bass. This doesn't work in the loud situation that I mostly play in.

[Keyser Soze]

Originally Posted by Les Fret

exactly! I don't trust most sound men when it comes to getting a good DB sound. Since most of them are not used to mixing a DB.

But your answers didn't answer my initial question:
what do you think is better for the sound in general, micing the amp or using the XLR out of the Platinum Pro?

I am not talking about micing the bass. This doesn't work in the loud situation that I mostly play in.

A pre-EQ, pre-"fader" DI send to the house gives the sound man a constant signal that he can tailor and have a "set it and forget it" baseline for your bass sound. But it will be a signal that is devoid of the sound of your bass "moving air" and would not be the prefered primary -- or lone -- desired sound; "Your bass, only louder."

By micing the speaker of the amp, at least you're micing a sound source where air is moving: the speaker cone. A blend of the DI and the mic'ed speaker will yield a better sound than a DI-only solution, assuming that your amp sounds good.

Conditions permitting, which, in your case you say they usually are not, you would also "like" to have a mic on the bass. But due to bleed, the mic can be rendered either problematic or unusuable. Fingers' solution, wrapping a mic in material and "mounting" it on the bass, will work in many cases. That sound will not be optimal and can likely be improved by blending with the sources mentioned above. Clip-mounted mics of one type or will be usuable in some cases, not so much in others.

IMHO, giving the sound man as many options to source and combine to try to create the best bass sound in the room is your best course of action. Assuming that the sound man cares how you sound in the house.

And this is dependent on what kind of gig it is: Are you the headliner or the twenty-minute set opening act? Are you one of a dozen acts on a festival stage? If/when you're the headliner, pull out the stops. If you're an "also ran," cooperate with the production paradigm, go for "less is more."

[fdeck]

My view is that mic'ing the speaker is the worst of all possible worlds. If it's a ported speaker, then mic'ing the cone will lose the entire lowest octave of sound.

The output of the speaker is just a filtered version of what is coming from the pickup. Any filtering that's vital can be provided at the sound board.

Now, an issue with DI is that it should be inserted in the effects send or preamp out of the bassist's amp, unless the sound crew has a DI with a high impedance input such as a type 85.

Not all sound techs know how to deal with upright bass. On one occasion, I played a "showcase" gig, got up on stage, the soundguy hooked me up, and the first time I played low E with full force, obliterated his subwoofers.

[TimmyP]

Mics are not very accurate - even some of the best ones. Bass cabinets are horrifically inaccurate. Mic a cabinet and what you get is not at all representative of the instrument. It may have some desirable qualities, but it will at best lack the nuances of the instrument, not to mention the bottom octave.

[Keyser Soze]

The "best" reproduction of the bass' sound is gonna come from using a very good mic. In many live performance situations, including the OP's, that's not gonna be a viable option, nor on the menu.

Therefore a workaround must be crafted. Most of us know what a DI-only bass sound sounds like. Nobody waxes nostalgic for Ron Carter's CTI tone. Of course, as F-Deck says, you warm up the DI with a preamp. But a monkey in a tuxedo is still a monkey. Mic'ing a cab is not done to obtain accurate reproduction nor full range frequency response but to avail onesself of a "warmer" sound to blend with the sterile-ish DI sound. If you can also add any (good) mic sound to those two sources, a blend of the three can be used to craft a sound coming out of the mains into the house that sits well in a mix and best simulates a "good" upright bass sound. In my experience, YMMV.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by Keyser Soze

If you can also add any (good) mic sound to those two sources, a blend of the three can be used to craft a sound coming out of the mains into the house that sits well in a mix and best simulates a "good" upright bass sound. In my experience, YMMV.

exactly.

[Les Fret]

Thanks for the advise everyone!

as said before in my situation I don't want to mic the bass. I know this will sound better but I mostly play in louder situations and micing the bass will give instant feedback problems. I don't want to worry about that when playing. Also I play a lot at festivals where there is little time to soundcheck.

So the best way to go according to your posts is going directly from the bass to the DI using the pre-fade?

My other initial question was if it is better to use the XLR out of the Platinum Pro or use a DI provided bu the sound man (supposed it is a good one)?
Does anyone have experience with using the Platinum as a DI?

[hensonbass]

Originally Posted by Les Fret

So the best way to go according to your posts is going directly from the bass to the DI using the pre-fade?

I would say yes, most experienced soundmen like as direct/un-eq'ed a signal as possible. However, if you have a particular eq setting that makes your bass sound better with the pickup you have then you might give them post-fade.

Originally Posted by Les Fret

My other initial question was if it is better to use the XLR out of the Platinum Pro or use a DI provided bu the sound man (supposed it is a good one)?
Does anyone have experience with using the Platinum as a DI?

The Fishman Platinum Pro will probably be better than most DI's sound companies will provide. Plus you have the options of phase shift and eq'ing if necessary.

[pygmygrizzly]

depends on mic placement... and mic, and sound guy, and room. what do you think, what does the recording say out of the board, against the mic in the back of the room, against steve the bartender who hears you every thursday. is the sound person someone that does this... "check... ok see ya later" or behind the board the whole time and knows his shizzy. no one listens to the bass player anyway, all the chicks are to busy checking out our massive bulge we carry in our pants. (or guys checking out those rocking tits, girls play bass too

[Keyser Soze]

Originally Posted by Les Fret

.... I play a lot at festivals where there is little time to soundcheck....

So the best way to go according to your posts is going directly from the bass to the DI using the pre-fade?

My other initial question was if it is better to use the XLR out of the Platinum Pro or use a DI provided bu the sound man (supposed it is a good one)?
Does anyone have experience with using the Platinum as a DI?

Sound men at festivals get burned out, margin for error rises w/ each act. Under the circumstances, they love "simple/easy."

I'd suggest just showing up w/ your Platinum Pro, setting it on top of whatever bass head is on stage. The sound guys likely have a DI sitting on top the amp and a mic on the cab. When the sound guy walks over to you, tell him you'd like to use your (Fishman) preamp into his amp/cab, that it also has a built in DI. All he has to to do is switch the line from out of his DI to, instead, come out of your Fishman (pre EQ.) The mic on the cab says "as is." You can use the EQ (and features) on your Fishman to dial in a stage sound without effecting what he's "seeing" at the board. No repatching or relabeling on his part. Quick and dirty solution.

I've done this using a Fishman Platinum Pro with great success. And the sound guys loved it, were grateful for the easy solution.

[Les Fret]

Good to know that you have good experiences with the Platinum Pro.
I always use my own amp.

I think it is better to use the Platinum then a DI from the sound man because of the impedance mismatches as someone said before.

I never use the Platinum in the effect loop though as someone suggested here. Is that better then just plug your bass directly in the Platinum and going straight to the amp? or is it not possible to use the Platinum as a DI and also plugging it in the effect loop?

[Keyser Soze]

Originally Posted by Les Fret

Good to know that you have good experiences with the Platinum Pro.
I always use my own amp.

I think it is better to use the Platinum then a DI from the sound man because of the impedance mismatches as someone said before.

I never use the Platinum in the effect loop though as someone suggested here. Is that better then just plug your bass directly in the Platinum and going straight to the amp? or is it not possible to use the Platinum as a DI and also plugging it in the effect loop?

The sound man's DI is one that works with his system (and, most likely, many, many systems.) The reason for choosing it over yours would be that he is familiar and comfortable with it. If yours (the Platinum Pro) works equally well with his system, there's no downside to using it instead. And the upside is that it offers you features that his DI doesn't. I don't believe that you'll have to worry about impedance mismatches using the house gear, though.

A/f/a plugging into the "input" jack vs. the "effects in" jack on the amp: The input jack will send you through the preamp and EQ sections of amp, effectively giving you two preamps; the Platinum Pro's and the one in the amp. By plugging into the effects send, you bypass the amp's preamp and EQ sections, using only the power amp section of the amp. Sometimes, on an amp that is slightly underpowered for the situation, you can gain (pun intended) a little exta volume by running into the input section, as opposed to the effects in jack. I've done this with my GK MB200, when I found I needed a little bit more ooomph than plugging into the effects in would afford.

No matter how you plug into the amp, the DI still works (either way.) Also, when connecting (the Platinum Pro) to a console that supplies phanton power, the Platinum Pro receives its power from the board: no need to use your AC adaptor or batteries.

Finally, a/f/a "always using your own amp," I've found that sometimes discretion is the better part of valor: The fewer things that need to be moved, repatched, etc., the fewer things that can go wrong.(Murphy's Law) On a festival situation, things can be rushed, crazy, the sound guys get fatigued, high, whatever. Sometimes the path of least resistance -- drop your Platinum Pro on top of the "house" backline bass rig, plug 'n' play. In that most of the house sound is gonna be coming from the mains, your amp is mainly serving as a stage monitor. If you can live w/ whatever sacrifice in tone, fidelity, stc. that you may incur by using the house rig, you're paid back by less stressed, less mixed up, grateful sound guys. Not only do they not have to jump through hoops for you, but they don't have to repatch (much) for the next act when you're done.

[Les Fret]

Hey Keyser,

very good and insightful observations!
I can agree to all of them.

I guess I have to decide for each gig separately what to do. I also have the Biesele (magnetic) pickup as a backup in case the feedback is too much. Or I can use the the Full Circle and the Biesele together and mix them into the Biesele preamp/mixer. So pickup wise I have three options :FC, Biesele or combined.

So with the DI I also have three options: use the Platinum direct, use the Platinum in the effects loop or use the house DI.

[Vic Koler]

Originally Posted by Keyser Soze

The sound man's DI is one that works with his system (and, most likely, many, many systems.) The reason for choosing it over yours would be that he is familiar and comfortable with it. If yours (the Platinum Pro) works equally well with his system, there's no downside to using it instead. And the upside is that it offers you features that his DI doesn't. I don't believe that you'll have to worry about impedance mismatches using the house gear, though.

I can't tell you the number of times a sound engineer has tried to plug my pick-up into a high end direct box with unsatisfactory results. (The Countryman immediately comes to mind.) They often start troubleshooting without even considering impedance mismatch, which is the true culprit. You do have to worry about impedance mismatches with professional operators and gear!