The Best sound I ever had!!

Monte · #1 12-07-2004, 01:49 PM

I've always had a thing about mixing mics with pickups. My experience with the Golden Trinity/ Bass Max made me conclude that mixing a mic with a pickup only gives you the worst of both worlds.

Now I have gone with a mic into the house and a pickup to the amp, but I don't go both into the same source.

Saturday I got called to do a last minute gig with a really good trio. Mitch Bell, a really good guitarist, and my friend Justin Walke, who is in town for a month from NYC (where he is one of John Riley's best students). I knew musically it was going to be a blast.

However, this is a difficult room. Very large club with low ceilings and no house PA. They pay you pretty well to bring your own PA. I wanted a good sound so I decided to bring both my Pub speakers. Usually I would just use the Schertler Dyn B through the Schertler Pre amp, but I already had my Mackie board with me from an afternoon gig, so I decided to go with that.

While setting up, I saw my mic in the gig bag and remembering Adrian Cho recently talking about mixing his AMT with his Dyn B, I decided to give it a try.

2 Pubs, small Mackie mixer, Dyn B (through a Behringer Parametric EQ), and the AKG C3000 mic. A little more complicated than my usual system.

From the first note I was thrilled with the sound. This really was the best of both worlds. I got the natural punch of the Dyn B with the added "air" from the mic. The trio was thrilled, and both commented on how good the sound of the bass was. Mitch said it was like having a cushion of the bass around him. Got several comments from the audience as well.

Musically, the night was great, although my playing wasn't on the conversational level of the other two guys. Sure was fun for me.

Of course, as Ed always says, the sound starts in the hands not the amp, so the best rig in the world won't make up for not getting that sound before you amplify. It was extremely rewarding to hear the same sound I fill my practice room with fill a club.

Monte

myrick · #2 12-07-2004, 09:57 PM

sounds like a great night!

but I'm a little unclear - did you mix the two sources and then run the mixed signal into two pubs, or mic into one, dynB into the other ?

Vunz · #3 12-08-2004, 02:33 AM

It indeed is a wonderful experience to find a way to give to your audience the sound of your bass, as you believe it should sound! Which, in many cases, is the sound of your unamplified bass played by you in your practice room (if the acoustics of that room are good, that is). To achieve this, not only the proper amplification is needed, but also the relaxed manner you play your instrument while practicing (provided that you practice in a relaxed manner, of course). What I noticed is that it is not so much the pickup or amp that was ruining my sound, but my own playing (please note that I am using the past tense here... no, really!). I was playing way too tense, unlike the way I play the instrument by myself in the safety of my practice room. As Ed repeatedly stated, the sound begins with your limbs touching the instrument. Everything after that is secondary.

Monte, was the sound you were getting with this combination better than with just using a mic (provided the acoustics of the venue allow for the use of just a mic), or was it better in the circumstances you were in? I have never tried mixing my Dyn-B and a mic, and now I can't anymore, since I have recently sold my Dyn, for the results I get by just using my Neumann KM-185 are so wonderful. I wouldn't want to go back using a pickup. But since apparently YMV (your mileage varies), and I very much appreciate your opinion, I am eager to know your answer to my question.

Thanx,

Vincent

**Adrian Cho** · #4 12-08-2004, 08:25 AM

Monte and Vincent - your experiences are similar to my own. I was always against mixing the mic and pickup. Rufus Reid told me that he thought mixing the Dyn-B and AMT were better than using either alone but I dismissed it. It's the part of me that is the stubborn purist and is perhaps not always practical. Like Vincent, I sold my Dyn-B because I was getting such good results with the mic - the AMT. I decided to get a pickup only as a backup and I actually had a Full Circle in my hands but never got around to installing it and then a good deal for a Dyn-B came up.

Anyway, my strategy now is that I simply use the mic and use as much Dyn-B as I need which ranges from none to perhaps 50% or more in the highest volume situations. It's not that I wasn't getting a great sound with the AMT alone but with the Dyn-B mixed in as needed, it's even better.

As an experiment I made some recordings using equal parts of the AMT and Dyn-B and I was pretty happy. Check them out if you're interested:

http://www.codajazz.com/Pangaea/Audio.html

**Adrian Cho** · #5 12-08-2004, 08:33 AM

To describe this, with the mic alone, the sound is totally accurate and natural. The Dyn-B alone is definitely not accurate enough for my liking but when mixed with the mic, it helps add more punch without compromising the sound. I should also add that I think like Monte, I am not using the Schertler Pre-A II preamp. In fact I don't have a para EQ either. With my current bass, I'm finding that I don't have any resonance issues with the Dyn-B.

Aleph5 · #6 12-08-2004, 11:02 AM

Do you find the relative phase of the two inputs to be an issue? I would think a phase switch for one would be needed.

AMJBASS · #7 12-08-2004, 11:10 AM

I am pretty sure the Dyn has a phase switch built in.

Monte · #8 12-08-2004, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrian Juras

I am pretty sure the Dyn has a phase switch built in.

It does. I've never really needed it.

Myrick, I was putting both the mic and the Dyn B and the AKG mic into a Mackie mixer, with each about the same level, and both were going into the pubs. No PA at this venue.

Vincent what I like about mixing the two better than either by itself is that the Dyn B lacks the air of a mic. I actually believe ths to be less of a problem when you get about 20 feet from the stage, the sound (especially if drums are involved) is very close to a mic. Where it bugs me is that if you are close to the speakers, it does not sound anything like a mic. (An odd phenomnon given that the one time I recorded direct with it, it sounded more like a mic than I could have ever hoped for.)

So why not just use the mic? While that is ideal, when volumes get loud, I find mics to have a less than centered sound that is hard to hear.

As you said, YMMV, but for myself, I can't see it getting any better than this.

Monte

**Adrian Cho** · #9 12-08-2004, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monte

Vincent what I like about mixing the two better than either by itself is that the Dyn B lacks the air of a mic.

So why not just use the mic? While that is ideal, when volumes get loud, I find mics to have a less than centered sound that is hard to hear.

Yes I definitely agree with all of this. I was getting a great sound with just the AMT but with the Dyn-B mixed in, it's even better and I don't have to dig in as hard. I'm trying to lighten up my right hand technique nowadays so a little bit more assist is a good thing for me right now. With the Dyn-B, the sound is more focused and has more punch. The trick is to find a pickup that doesn't comprise the sound of the mic. I think what Chris is doing with the AMT and Full Circle is quite similar. On the other hand, I've heard setups using harsher pickups - K&K, Realist, etc. with a lavalier in the f hole. The technique there is more to balance out the harshness of the pickup with the mic which by itself is overly warm and boomy but together they work out alright.

Monte · #10 12-08-2004, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

As an experiment I made some recordings using equal parts of the AMT and Dyn-B and I was pretty happy. Check them out if you're interested:

http://www.codajazz.com/Pangaea/Audio.html

Adrian,

These sounded really good. I listened to Dear Old Stockholm and Oliloqui Valley.

Your playing has really been coming along. If I had a criticism, it would be that when you walk (thinking of Dear Old Stockholm), you are a little heavy-handed with 2 and 4 (sounds strange to hear myself say that!!

). Maybe just a function of no drummer, but it is a little stifling to the overall groove.

Good sound!!

Monte

**Adrian Cho** · #11 12-08-2004, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monte

Your playing has really been coming along. If I had a criticism, it would be that when you walk (thinking of Dear Old Stockholm), you are a little heavy-handed with 2 and 4

Yes I agree with you there. I was wondering when someone would say that. To be honest, it's part of my effort to try and keep things in line and I agree it comes across too strong. In general, I am too heavy-handed and I've been trying to lighten up. For now, to help with that, I've lowered my action, am using the amp a little bit more, and the new bass definitely helps - the previous one just didn't speak as easily as this one.

I really am happy with this sound and I feel that with the AMT and the Dyn-B together, that I have a range of options available for a variety of situations. My teacher is now using the same setup - AMT, Dyn-B and Pub. He originally had a Wilson and a Realist and a Contra.

Vunz · #12 12-08-2004, 11:49 PM

Thanks for the replies. Until now I have not felt the need to add a pickup to my mic, but I understand what your reasons were. However, the combination of my bass, mic, mic preamp, power amp, and cab provides me with a very focused sound. Hopefully, it will stay that way, or else I will regret selling my Dyn-b...

Vincent