Brain dump on future small rigs

[Adrian Cho]

Just a bit of a brain dump from me from my thoughts about a new (small) rig. I'm pretty happy with the sound I'm getting now from my Series II Focus and the Epi UL-110. Unfortunately it's still not a very good package for doing one trip with the bass although it does work with a trolley. I also still find it way overpowered for anything I ever do and generally have the levels set very, very low. The loudest gig I played in 2006 where I had to provide my own sound was with a quartet in a huge gymnasium for a university graduation event. We were located on a small stage in about the center of the room and there were about 1000 people walking around. Even then I don't think I was using much of the capacity of my rig. I also play a lot of trio gigs in big convention centre rooms with thousands of people at sit-down dinners but of course you're not trying to fill the whole room with sound and there is always an installed PA and sound crew anyway.

For what I do which is mostly small groups where I can play many of the gigs in the small venues without an amp anyway or with a big band where the music was written with unamplified bass in mind (e.g. Ellington or Gil Evans as opposed to say Maynard Ferguson), I find my rig is still way too much. And for really small tight gigs in cafes, it's still too damn big and too much crap to haul around and setup. It's times like that when I just need a little bit of an assist that one of those small AER combos like the Compact 60 makes me drool. So small and light, small footprint and profile, such clear sound.

The Wizzy 10 is very promising although the recent revelation about the loss of high-end from the Wizzy 12 (down from about 12 Khz to 5 Khz) is a bit disappointing. I recently went through an exercise with the MBX112 and found the lack of high end response to be unacceptable to my ears.

The Micro 300 looks exciting but it's disappointing that there is no adjustable high-pass filter especially with all the discussion we've had about such a feature here and how invaluable it is to many of us. Also having two channels but no XLR and no phantom power is a bit disappointing. However I understand of course that all such things take more space, weight and add to the price. It is pretty damn small though. I was looking at one of the Flying Mole DAD-M100Pro BI-type amps (100 W into 8 ohms, 160 W into 4 ohms) like Vunz is using with his Glockenklang cabs. However even that with a Fishman Pro-EQ Platinum Bass is still larger (although lighter) than the Micro 300. The Flying Moles are pretty cool and you can even get a mounting kit to screw them to the back of a speaker cab.

I did not realise that the Series III Focus heads are larger than the Series II. A pity they got bigger when I would hope everything is getting smaller.

I've been looking at the el cheapo Falk Tiny-Myte speakers like the ones Chris Fitzgerald sometimes uses. Also the various SR Technology offerings are interesting. For those that have forgotten, they are the Italian company behind the Schertler stuff like the Pub and Side speakers. Their Jam combos are interesting but have too much crap for me. I was primarily interested in their Club speakers but unfortunately the unpowered versions come with no external handle and hi-fi speaker terminals as they are designed for installation and not for toting around. However the specs, build quality (based on pics and the Schertler stuff) and prices even shipped from Italy are great.

[Phil Smith]

You could try the Bose Packlite A1, a power amp with 250 watts into 4ohms. Here's the specs:

http://www.bose.com/controller?event...=packlite&ck=0

[bolo]

I know you are not enchanted by the down-firing woofer design in general, but the Series III Coda (head + cab) weighs less than the Epi UL-110 cab alone, has a slimmer width, and is only slightly longer depth-wise.

It's got the XLR inputs and the high-pass filter you mentioned too.

Comes with a padded bag and a strap I think. I watch one fellow who I do back-to-back gigs with sometimes make his one-trip in and out w/ his bass and a Series II Contra, albeit a little loaded down looking.

Seems maybe you're thinking REAL small though. The EA Micro is interesting all right, but does not have every feature you listed like you said. Plus you need a cab too ...

I will try the Series III Coda one of these days. The extra headroom vs. the Series I and II makes a significant difference according to users like Bob Branstetter. Did you use the high pass filter on your AI gear when you tried it? I have not - mine is a Series I.

[Ric Vice]

Adrian,
Unless you wan't to go back to the AI Downfiring Cabinet than I simply don't know of anything lighter than the Epifani 110. My VL 108 has a shallower footprint, but even it weighs 28 lbs. There are limitations to how small and light you can go even with todays neo speakers and poplar cabinets. I tried the Ampeg Portabass 10" and it's not satisfactory for my needs.

Ric

[Adrian Cho]

In terms of 10" drivers, the Wizzy 10 is the only thing that may possibly best the Epi 110. However of course it has no tweeter and even worse the high end of the Wizzer in the Wizzy 10 is a lot less than that of the Wizzy 12.

However, let's not forget about 8" drivers or hey even 6". Remember the Phil Jones Briefcase thing has a 5" woofer. Realistically however I don't think I can go smaller than an 8". I have never forgotten the sound of the Pub 2/280 with it's 8" woofer and soft-fabric dome tweeter. I liked that sound better than the Epi. However the weight of it killed me. I am very tempted to get one of the SR Tech unpowered Club 150s and do the mods to install a handle and a Speakon connector. The passive Club 150 weighs in at 16.5 lbs and is very compact.

A lot of the problem here is still the refusal of the major manufacturers to explore or go back to 8" drivers. Clearly there is only so much you can do with 10" drivers in terms of size and weight but we know that the 8" speakers can work. It's just unfortunate that the only options are either heavy as heck although compact (Schertler) or slightly unpowered and very guitar-focused (AER).

I have still yet to try one of the AER combos. I think they set the standard for weight and compactness and the sound at least for guitar is quite incredible - you wouldn't believe your ears for the size of the box.

[Adrian Cho]

I have yet to try one of the new series III AI combos and I hear that they are improved but I am prepared to be disappointed with the whole down-firing crap having owned a series I Coda for a long time and then trialled a series II Coda for a while. Imagine if AI would apply all their expertise including the plastic cab technology and do a forward firing thing. Of course it will never happen because it doesn't help them differentiate themselves like the down-firing thing does. As Sam would, it would be great if my ears were in my socks...

[Adrian Cho]

I'm willing to forgo the XLR input and phantom and in fact even a whole channel for everything else. I've found that I'm so happy with the Full Circle on my current bass that I have stopped exploring the mic thing. In fact I have that AKG C419 that I bought recently and have not used it at all apart from a quick tryout at home.

I use my high-pass filter all the time and couldn't be without it.

The padded box with a strap for the series III Coda is a good thing especially with the cab being a bit narrower. I had the bag with the series I Coda but that was not very carryable on the shoulder with the thing being so big and round. I notice that they are talking about a special padded backpack to house the Wizzy 10 and the Micro 300.

As for the Bose Packlist yes I looked at that too. I think on spec that I'd rather go with the Flying Mole.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

However, let's not forget about 8" drivers or hey even 6". Remember the Phil Jones Briefcase thing has a 5" woofer. Realistically however I don't think I can go smaller than an 8". I have never forgotten the sound of the Pub 2/280 with it's 8" woofer and soft-fabric dome tweeter. .

I certianly can't disagree with you here. All my cabinets use 8" Speakers. The VL 208, LDS 3way 2X8 and the VL 108

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

A lot of the problem here is still the refusal of the major manufacturers to explore or go back to 8" drivers.

Evidently 8" Neo Drivers are few and far between. As far as I know
only two companies manufacture them B&C in Italy, and Eminince in the US. Since EA abondoned the Neo's on the CM 208 one would surmise that nither of these two 8"neo's would work in a transmission line cabinet.

It is very interesting however, that both Markbass and SR Technologies use Neo's in their cabinets and these companies are located in Italy.

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

I have still yet to try one of the AER combos. I think they set the standard for weight and compactness and the sound at least for guitar is quite incredible - you wouldn't believe your ears for the size of the box.

I was able to try the AER Domino last year. It sounded good in the store.I never got to try it in a performance situation.

Ric

[bolo]

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

In terms of 10" drivers, the Wizzy 10 is the only thing that may possibly best the Epi 110. However of course it has no tweeter and even worse the high end of the Wizzer in the Wizzy 10 is a lot less than that of the Wizzy 12.

I wonder how much that 5.5kHz frequency ceiling [edit: frequency where the -3 dB roll-off starts ] for the Wizzy 10 would really impact the tone, esp. for DB. I am thinking here more of the noisy gigs w/ crowd noise, loud bandmates, etc. The highest note on a piano (C8) is 4186Hz. I guess we're talking overtones, harmonics, and transients for DB - dunno, I am not a techie - I just googled for that C8 Hz stuff. But I have to believe the ears on the guys at EA are far better than mine. And far pickier.

[bolo]

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

I'm willing to forgo the XLR input and phantom and in fact even a whole channel for everything else. I've found that I'm so happy with the Full Circle on my current bass that I have stopped exploring the mic thing. In fact I have that AKG C419 that I bought recently and have not used it at all apart from a quick tryout at home.

Wow, that's a strong endorsement for a pickup coming from you!

Is that just for your Type II "working" gigs as opposed to your concert stuff? I am referring to one of your old threads here ... apologies.

I am experimenting with a Beyer M 88, and I am beginning to feel like I will always want that as part of my sound from now on, either alone or blended w/ a pickup.

So far I prefer the Beyer to my AMT, but I'm still in the early stages of comparing the two.

Back on track ... Had you considered something like the MarkBass AC101?

Or maybe one of the AER dealers would let you pay for a unit, and promise a full refund if you return it. You'd be out shipping both ways I reckon. Just for grins, (and because I have in-laws in Carleton Place and Smith Falls), I checked mileage from Ottawa to Elderly Instruments in Lansing. A mere 9 and a half hour drive for a demo. That's one way. In winter. Yuck.

[Adrian Cho]

Yeah I'm definitely not saying the Full Circle on my bass sounds as good as a mic but you know for a long time I subscribed to this whole "sounds like my bass only louder" business. I think perhaps that can work with certain sounds but for my sound it's a big mistake to expect a louder version of it to work in really loud situations. The fact is that when I just need a bit of an assist, most of the tone people hear is my bass as the level on the amp is not that high anyway. If it's so loud that the level of the amp is basically supplanting the acoustic sound of the bass then at least in my experience, it's the kind of music and/or the kind of situation where no one really cares less about the specific tone of the bass. It took me a long time to realise this and generally things are a lot simpler for me now at least on the typical jobbing gigs (the type II gigs). The last loud concert gig I played I actually did use the FC only but again I was playing with a lot of my sound and although I was fronting a seventeen piece band, I was the leader and I was right up in front of the band so my sound came through quite clearly.

Yeah I checked out the AC101 but don't like the weight and dimensions. Too fat. There's a lot to be said for the shape of the unit. If it's too fat like the Epi UL110, it makes it really cumbersome to carry.

There is a shop in town with the AER boxes which is where my guitarist buddy got his. It's a real pain to take my bass in that shop but I'll just have to do it to check it out.

I am hopeful about the Wizzy 10 and already had full intention to get one and try it anywhere regardless of what the high end spec really meant. It's good to know that people think it won't be an issue.

[Adrian Cho]

Originally Posted by Ric Vice

Evidently 8" Neo Drivers are few and far between. As far as I know
only two companies manufacture them B&C in Italy, and Eminince in the US. Since EA abondoned the Neo's on the CM 208 one would surmise that nither of these two 8"neo's would work in a transmission line cabinet.

It is very interesting however, that both Markbass and SR Technologies use Neo's in their cabinets and these companies are located in Italy.

You make a good point about the neos. After all, I tried the LDS 1x8 with the neo 8 and hated it - way too bright for my liking. Now the Pub was great but it was heavy as hell because as it was explained to me by a guy at SR Tech, the magnet is oversized and that's what gives it control of the low end. So perhaps it actually is impossible to get good bass and tone with an 8" driver without using the traditional speakers. I don't know if the 8" dual-cone drivers in the AER are neos or not but the small units aimed mostly at guitar with 60 Hz bottom ends are ridiculously light as in 17 lbs for a combo so imagine how light the actual cab itself is.

I realise we are really starting to push the limits of the physics and technology here which is also why I called this thread a brain dump. I don't precisely know what the answer is or exactly where the limits are but it definitely is interesting to see some of the developments that are happening.

[bolo]

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

Yeah I'm definitely not saying the Full Circle on my bass sounds as good as a mic but you know for a long time I subscribed to this whole "sounds like my bass only louder" business. I think perhaps that can work with certain sounds but for my sound it's a big mistake to expect a louder version of it to work in really loud situations. The fact is that when I just need a bit of an assist, most of the tone people hear is my bass as the level on the amp is not that high anyway. If it's so loud that the level of the amp is basically supplanting the acoustic sound of the bass then at least in my experience, it's the kind of music and/or the kind of situation where no one really cares less about the specific tone of the bass. It took me a long time to realise this and generally things are a lot simpler for me now at least on the typical jobbing gigs (the type II gigs).

Understood bro. As much as I like the AMT and the Beyer, some gigs I know I am just gonna be choppin' wood pretty loudly to a bunch of uninterested parties, so I leave the mics at home. Ain't worth the fuss, even though I do miss the mic'd sound.

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

I am hopeful about the Wizzy 10 and already had full intention to get one and try it anywhere regardless of what the high end spec really meant. It's good to know that people think it won't be an issue.

Well others may disagree about the whole 5.5KHz freq ceiling [ edit: point where the -3 dB roll-off starts ] being an issue or not. I suspect we'll hear more on that. Like I said, I trust the folks at EA.

I am quite happy with my Wizzy (12) combo amp. But I admit the thought of a Wizzy 10 and a Micro 300 is just pretty durn cool. And about half the weight. Might be your ticket ... Glad to hear you are one of the ones planning on trying the Wizzy 10.

[bribass]

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

In terms of 10" drivers, the Wizzy 10 is the only thing that may possibly best the Epi 110. However of course it has no tweeter and even worse the high end of the Wizzer in the Wizzy 10 is a lot less than that of the Wizzy 12.

However, let's not forget about 8" drivers or hey even 6". Remember the Phil Jones Briefcase thing has a 5" woofer. Realistically however I don't think I can go smaller than an 8". I have never forgotten the sound of the Pub 2/280 with it's 8" woofer and soft-fabric dome tweeter. I liked that sound better than the Epi. However the weight of it killed me. I am very tempted to get one of the SR Tech unpowered Club 150s and do the mods to install a handle and a Speakon connector. The passive Club 150 weighs in at 16.5 lbs and is very compact.

A lot of the problem here is still the refusal of the major manufacturers to explore or go back to 8" drivers. Clearly there is only so much you can do with 10" drivers in terms of size and weight but we know that the 8" speakers can work. It's just unfortunate that the only options are either heavy as heck although compact (Schertler) or slightly unpowered and very guitar-focused (AER).

I have still yet to try one of the AER combos. I think they set the standard for weight and compactness and the sound at least for guitar is quite incredible - you wouldn't believe your ears for the size of the box.

For all my small, light amp needs (even when a decent amount of volume is needed) for the last 8+ years I've been using the older version of this combo and I marvel at it's warm, clean sound, compact/light (26 lbs.) package, and ruggedness everyday. And...oh yeah, it's pretty cheap to buy! http://www.musiciansbuy.com/mb/item....M50C&source=NT
BG

[Uncletoad]

I don't have much to contribute here.

I find more than half my gigs require me to play louder than my basses acoustic sound goes.

Although I'd also like to say that in those moments when I can actually hear mostly my bass on the gig, my amp acts as a low end boost in the room more than something that is "heard".

In fact the barmaid on the weds gig last week mentioned she thought it was perfect that I played an acoustic bass without an amp in that little place as anything amplified would be to much.

I didn't feel the need to mention that I was using one.

I'll follow along now...

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

I don't have much to contribute here.

I find more than half my gigs require me to play louder than my basses acoustic sound goes.

Although I'd also like to say that in those moments when I can actually hear mostly my bass on the gig, my amp acts as a low end boost in the room more than something that is "heard".

In fact the barmaid on the weds gig last week mentioned she thought it was perfect that I played an acoustic bass without an amp in that little place as anything amplified would be to much.

I didn't feel the need to mention that I was using one.

I'll follow along now...

I'm betting that you were using the VL 208 mighty might. Am I correct? I've had similar experiences.

Ric

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Ric Vice

I'm betting that you were using the VL 208 mighty might. Am I correct? I've had similar experiences.

Ric

Fishman Full Circle/Sennheiser 409 into Focus IIIR and EA VL 208. My rig for all gigs these days.

[bolo]

Re: the Wizzy 10 and its top end - I did notice that the "Bright" preset button on my iAMP provides a +8dB boost at 7.5kHz, which is higher than the speaker's listed 5.5kHz [ edit ] -3 dB roll-off point. The owner's manual I have says:

"This preset emulates the high-end response of a vintage Fender Jazz Bass pickup. It gives you a top end 'snap' that dull-sounding pickup systems cannot. The tremendous amount of boost also compensates for speaker systems that do not deliver a good upper end response. It can also add sparkle to a lackluster or old set of strings."

I don't use the presets for DB, but I have used the Deep, Contour I and Bright presets in various combinations w/ my EBs.

[PB+J]

I've been going back and forth about the Markbass 121p. It's nice to be able to bring the bass and the amp in one trip, plug in one thing, and have an xlr input. The amp has a very old school, low-middy tone like an ampeg b-15, but it doesn't have a lot of hifi clarity. it works really well live, but it tends to color the sound some--in a good way, but it's not as transparent as my Avalon U5/epifani Ul110 rig

I like it better than any combo amp I've tried with double bass

[Adrian Cho]

I've steered clear of MarkBass for a number of reasons some of which I know others won't care about. One thing is that the form factor of all most of their boxes is too square which makes it hard to carry - like the Acme B-1. I know the acoustic design comes first but the reality is that a big square box is hard to carry especially when you're carrying the bass at the same time. The other thing is aesthetics. I'm guessing not many people care about this but quite often I have to play at "high-falutin functions" such as at embassies and consulates here in Ottawa, the Governor-General's residence, Parliament Hill, that kind of thing. In all those cases and even in most others, I don't particularly care for a speaker with a big orange ring on it that looks like some kind of Hooters derivative. It screams "look at me." Even up on stage at a concert, I don't wish to draw visual attention to my speaker cab so that or any other big sign just turns me off. Why can't they just make simple, plain elegant looking boxes. If I want to do a neon paint job on it I will. Well of course I know why, it's part of their brand identity, but I find it annoying. Given a preference, I would opt for a speaker that just blends in so that most people don't even know it is there.