Cable Comparison Reviews (pre)

[flatback]

I have been seeing a lot of new high end cables coming on the market lately, which has caused me to wonder if they make any discernible difference in the sound for an acoustic bassist. Occasionally I hear people give glowing accounts of how much more and better signal can be got from the hifi cables that are available but I've always been skeptical and resigned to my proletarian snakes. A few weeks ago I was talking to this cat who is a sound engineer and bassist and he was talking them up, his point being that with a low output signal like a piezo, the cable is an important consideration and can have a discernible and positive effect on the Signal.
So i thought I'd test a few of them and see. Neil at Vovox has been kind enough to send me a cable (Kurt Rosenwinkle and Steve Swallow are on the Vovox site saying positive things) and Mark from Lava Cable is sending me a Van den Hul Integration Hybrid, in addition I have a few others (Planetwaves, George L, D'marzio, MonsterBass) from Kevin at North Sound.
I've yet to try the high end cables (they're in the mail) but the difference between the others seems mostly in the build quality not the sonic differences. In fact, other then a kind of bump in the Monster bass cord which I felt was a little fake in its voicing (but so minor as to be barely audible) they all seem enough in the same ballpark not to warrant too much comment. That is, a cord is a cord. I'll try them all back to back when I get the other two.
Unless the two high end lines are either a real sonic enhancement or a lot more signal, I'm beginning to think it might make a lot more difference to a guitarist where the high end is more present.
Does anyone have any real experience to share about this neglected part of the signal chain?...Anyone own hifi cables and why? Do they make any difference to you?

[larry]

Do you have a way to record each of them? That would really be cool if everyone could hear the same pickup, the same bass, etc. through different cables.

I've been too skeptical to invest a lot of dough. I just use a Planet Waves cable. Still, I'm open-minded.

[PB+J]

I'm not expert, but it seems to me that

A: a cable can pretty much have capacitance, and that will work out to a high frequency roll off. Less capacitance, more highs. Other than that, I'm skeptical

B: my ears vary more, in a day, than the difference between cables. I hear my bass one way in the morning, later in the day it sounds a llittle different, dependng on my mood

[drurb]

Originally Posted by PB+J

I'm not expert, but it seems to me that

A: a cable can pretty much have capacitance, and that will work out to a high frequency roll off. Less capacitance, more highs. Other than that, I'm skeptical

B: my ears vary more, in a day, than the difference between cables. I hear my bass one way in the morning, later in the day it sounds a llittle different, dependng on my mood

+1! Please see this.

[bassist14]

drurb, sorry for being offtopic, but: how did you do this "View Single Post"-link?

[flatback]

Originally Posted by DRURB

+1! Please see this.

Thanks for shedding some light. Lemme ask you then, say looking thru the full spectrum of cables at lavacables.com what would you think would be the ideal cable for piezo pick ups thinking both in terms of build and gauge and price? I use Lavacables as an example because there are some many choices all built the same (neutric 1/4 etc.).

[mje]

Originally Posted by flatback

Thanks for shedding some light. Lemme ask you then, say looking thru the full spectrum of cables at lavacables.com what would you think would be the ideal cable for piezo pick ups thinking both in terms of build and gauge and price? I use Lavacables as an example because there are some many choices all built the same (neutric 1/4 etc.).

The idea cable for a piezo is a short one. The preamp should be as close to the piezo pickup as possible- preferably right on it, or as close as is practical. On the tailpiece is a good location.

The preamp doesn't have to be fancy- it can be something as simple as fdeck's one-fet source follower. And once that is done, you have a low-impedance output, and you can use any cable at all between the preamp and the amp.

Between the piezo and the preamp I use Canari's various cables because they're readily available, low in capacitance, and reasonably cheap. Another good choice is George-L cable, if you don't have soldering skills. You can make a custom cable using only a pair of cutters and a small screwdriver and George-L's special plugs.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by mje

The idea cable for a piezo is a short one. The preamp should be as close to the piezo pickup as possible- preferably right on it, or as close as is practical. On the tailpiece is a good location.

The preamp doesn't have to be fancy- it can be something as simple as fdeck's one-fet source follower. And once that is done, you have a low-impedance output, and you can use any cable at all between the preamp and the amp.

Between the piezo and the preamp I use Canari's various cables because they're readily available, low in capacitance, and reasonably cheap. Another good choice is George-L cable, if you don't have soldering skills. You can make a custom cable using only a pair of cutters and a small screwdriver and George-L's special plugs.

While I do not disagree in principle, the practical reality is that if the input to the pre-amp is of sufficiently high impedance and the cables are of reasonable quality (nothing exotic required), then for many of the piezos discussed in these threads, even a run of several feet between the piezo and the pre-amp will produce no ill effects. I did this test with the Rev. Solo and fdeck's pre-amp. Try as I might, I could hear no reliable difference between placing the pre-amp right at the pickup (on a short line) or at the far end of a cable several feet long.

Again, you are 100% correct with regard to the theoretical concern.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by flatback

Thanks for shedding some light. Lemme ask you then, say looking thru the full spectrum of cables at lavacables.com what would you think would be the ideal cable for piezo pick ups thinking both in terms of build and gauge and price? I use Lavacables as an example because there are some many choices all built the same (neutric 1/4 etc.).

Well, I've never looked through the full spectrum. I really think this is much ado about (almost) nothing. I choose cables based on their build-quality, connectors, etc. I took a look at the Lava Cables site. IMHBEO (In my humble but educated opinion), the "reviews," frequency-response curves, and ratings are close to meaningless. I agree with mje. You need not buy anything exotic.

[mje]

Originally Posted by DRURB

While I do not disagree in principle, the practical reality is that if the input to the pre-amp is of sufficiently high impedance and the cables are of reasonable quality (nothing exotic required), then for many of the piezos discussed in these threads, even a run of several feet between the piezo and the pre-amp will produce no ill effects. I did this test with the Rev. Solo and fdeck's pre-amp. Try as I might, I could hear no reliable difference between placing the pre-amp right at the pickup (on a short line) or at the far end of a cable several feet long....

Did you look at cable noise? That's one other factor with a very high impedance input and coaxial cable.

Some piezo pickups seem to have a faily low impedance, though I've never measured this. And a preamp enables you to put a volume control closer to the instrument. Installing a source follower in my Azola gave much more linear volume control than the stock setup, which had a 500K pot in parallel with a K&K pickup.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by mje

Did you look at cable noise? That's one other factor with a very high impedance input and coaxial cable.

Some piezo pickups seem to have a faily low impedance, though I've never measured this. And a preamp enables you to put a volume control closer to the instrument. Installing a source follower in my Azola gave much more linear volume control than the stock setup, which had a 500K pot in parallel with a K&K pickup.

No, I didn't "look" at noise. The noise floor was below audibility. It simply didn't matter where I put the pre-amp in terms of any practical concerns. I make no claims about what the situation would be with other pickups/setups.

[mburd]

Our good buddy Wil De Sola has recently been impressed enough with the sound/player testimony to take on this line:
http://www.evidenceaudio.com/product.html

Wil sent me this a few weeks ago:

"On Friday I went to hear a terrific jazz trio nearby, Ted Rosental on piano and friend bassist, Harvie S, one of the N.Y. heavies.
Harvie told me about a new pickup/amp cord that he was using and raving about how good it is and how much it improved his sound.

It's made by Evidence and has apparently also caught Buster Williams. Both Harvie and B are (now) endorsers.

You may want to have a look at the website and read about their LyricHD cable."


I currently use self-built cables but may give one a try at some point.
NCI, etc. Mods- is this ok?

[flatback]

Yea its just such testimonials that piqued my curiosity in the first place. I started to figure, with all this high end amplification equipment maybe the Cable DOES make a difference.
But I'll let my ears decide. More when I get em'

[drurb]

Originally Posted by flatback

Yea its just such testimonials that piqued my curiosity in the first place. I started to figure, with all this high end amplification equipment maybe the Cable DOES make a difference.
But I'll let my ears decide. More when I get em'

Yup, and right after that you'll want to get a set of these.

[flatback]

dude mon,
been there done that...I even have backups in my gig bag...I hear there is a new cover cover so you dont scratch the finish...

[fdeck]

Ironically, cable capacitance matters more for passive electric bass than for a piezo upright bass pickup. On a passive bass, the amount of capacitance in a typical cable (about 40 pF/foot) is enough to have a good chance of altering the tone by attenuating some of the higher frequencies. There is exactly one brand of cable that I know of with lower capacitance, and that's George L at 20 pF/foot.

On upright bass, added capacitance just reduces the overall signal level by an equal amount at all frequencies, because the pickup itself is capacitive.

The suggestion of a short cable to minimize the effect of microphonics is a good one. On passive electric bass, I take the lazy man's approach, which is to live with the effect, adjust the EQ by ear, and just play.

[B String]

Just to add to this mess of opinions. My bass tech has
been out doing the Sting summer tour. Just to waste
time, they ab'd a number of popular cables and found
that the Planet Waves sounded the best in their tests. I
don't know all of the other cables other than Monster,
and Canare, but of the ones they tested, they liked the
Planet Waves. Just thought I'd throw it in the mix.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by fdeck

Ironically, cable capacitance matters more for passive electric bass than for a piezo upright bass pickup. On a passive bass, the amount of capacitance in a typical cable (about 40 pF/foot) is enough to have a good chance of altering the tone by attenuating some of the higher frequencies. There is exactly one brand of cable that I know of with lower capacitance, and that's George L at 20 pF/foot.

On upright bass, added capacitance just reduces the overall signal level by an equal amount at all frequencies, because the pickup itself is capacitive.

IN whatever manner and by whatever means a mode of know-
ledge may relate to objects, intuition is that through which it
is in immediate relation to them, and to which all thought as a
means is directed. But intuition takes place only in so far as the
object is given to us. This again is only possible, to man at least,
in so far as the mind is affected in a certain way. The capacity
(receptivity) for receiving representations through the mode
in which we are affected by objects, is entitled sensibility.
Objects are given to us by means of sensibility, and it alone
yields us intuitions; they are thought through the understand-
ing, and from the understanding arise concepts. But all thought
must, directly or indirectly, by way of certain characters
relate ultimately to intuitions, and therefore, with us, to sensi-
bility, because in no other way can an object be given to us.
The effect of an object upon the faculty of representation,
so far as we are affected by it, is sensation. That intuition
which is in relation to the object through sensation, is entitled
empirical. The undetermined object of an empirical intuition
is entitled appearance.

That in the appearance which corresponds to sensation
I term its matter; but that which so determines the manifold
of appearance that it allows of being ordered in certain re-
lations, I term the form of appearance. That in which alone
the sensations can be posited and ordered in a certain form,
cannot itself be sensation; and therefore, while the matter of
all appearance is given to us a posteriori only, its form must
lie ready for the sensations a priori in the mind, and so must
allow of being considered apart from all sensation.
I term all representations pure (in the transcendental
sense) in which there is nothing that belongs to sensation. The
pure form of sensible intuitions in general, in which all the
manifold of intuition is intuited in certain relations, must be
found in the mind a priori. This pure form of sensibility may
also itself be called pure intuition. Thus, if I take away from
the representation of a body that which the understanding
thinks in regard to it, substance, force, divisibility, etc. , and
likewise what belongs to sensation, impenetrability, hardness,
colour, etc. , something still remains over from this empirical
intuition, namely, extension and figure. These belong to pure
intuition, which, even without any actual object of the senses
or of sensation, exists in the mind a priori as a mere form
of sensibility.

Your honor, I'm just a caveman...

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Your honor, I'm just a caveman...

Touche!

[fish slapper]

are you going to include Greatcables?
http://www.greatcables.us/
They make a bass cable which I have one. I swear to my ears I get more bass bias with this cable than the generic stock ones but it might be my imagination.