Can I Use AI Coda as a 2-Channel "PA" System?

[MT Spaces]

In the recent thread about the Wizzy 10, I posted this question:

Originally Posted by Bob Knebel

I have been seriously considering getting a 4 ohm Wizzy 10 (size, weight, SPL volume, and amp headroom considerations) to complement my Series III AI Coda 2-channel combo amp. I am thinking that the small and lightweight set-up may be great for smaller gigs where we can run a central condensor mic for vocals/acoustic guitar/banjo/fiddle into one channel and then run my double bass (mic or Solo Rev II pup) into the other channel. I wouldn't always have to drag the heavy multi-channel Mackie PA system around.

Based on the frequency response of the new Wizzy 10, I now wonder if the set-up would give out suitable and sufficient highs and mids for a good sound from the central mic. I realize everything in life and live amped music is a compromise but I'm wondering if any of you have an opinion about my proposed set-up. Thanks in advance.

Anyhow ..... I got spanked by my north-of-the-border friend Jake, whose opinion and musical talents I deeply respect, for hijacking the thread. Honest I was just trying (as a rank newbie) to ask a question about the Wizzy 10. Heck, now he's even gonna quit the band if I try the proposed set-up:

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

Bob, not only would the rest of the band sound compressed through the Wizzy, you need phantom power for your condenser buddy!

If I was playing guitar and singing lead in your band and you asked me to go through your bass amp, I'd quit on the spot.

You only need a small board for your LD Condenser and a pair of powered speakers.

Apologies for contributing to Bob's thread hijack......

Let me try this in a new thread. First of all, I don't understand what "compressed sound" is. I realize the Wizzy 10 doesn't have the high end freq response that the Wizzy 12 has so maybe the 10 would be a poor choice for what I am trying to figure out. The Coda has phantom power available for both channels with independent filtering, eq adjustments, effects, etc. so I guess I don't see why I can't run a central condensor mic into one channel and leave the other for my bass. I also think the frequency response of the amp itself is plenty wide enough to provide the mid and high ends.

The Coda has the same front-end electronics as the Corus which has been used successfully for guitar players and vocals. Scroll to the bottom of this link:

http://www.gbase.com/Powered/GearDet...9&Item=1554287

It seems to me that if I run an "efficient" high SPL 4 ohm external speaker like the Wizzy 12 that has good mid and high range response, that our sound could be pretty decent and that the "bassy" sound of the Coda's internal woofer would not take precedence over the overall sound. I would like to avoid buying more stuff (like "a small board for your LD Condenser and a pair of powered speakers") and try to maximize the use of my current Coda amp for smaller gigs. With a external speaker like a Wizzy then I am also able to have plenty of room for bass (only) on louder / outdoor jobs.

I would appreciate any other opinions about this proposed set-up. If there aren't any, then I will truly know that I am crazy and I will go back to my corner and realize for the umpteenth time that I have a lot to learn about amplification in live situations. Thanks!

[T-Bal]

It's not so much a question of whether you can do it or not. It's just not the right approach. Putting 3 or 4 instruments plus vocals into one small combo on the floor is just counterintuitive. You need two stand mounted speakers to project and acheive more realistic imaging. If you're looking to go simple, small, and relatively inexpensive, there's the Yamaha Stagepas with the little mixer that stores in one of the speakers.

Here's a link: http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMSTAGEPAS300 - cheaper than a Coda too. Very portable.

If all you want is a little presence form the bass, you could maybe run it thru there too, but you might be better off with a small combo for "stage volume".

[jtlownds]

It should probably work OK. I used to play with a big band that did not use a PA. The guitar & bass played thru combos. I was using an SWR California Blonde, which like the Coda, is a 2 channel acoustic amp. Our singer ran her mic thru the second channel of my Blonde. Never had any problems with that arrangement, and it sounded just fine. One other thing, on my guitar gigs lately, I have been playing thru my AI Contra. It works as well with a guitar as it does with the bass (as long as you don't need effects).

[MT Spaces]

Originally Posted by T-Bal

It's not so much a question of whether you can do it or not. It's just not the right approach. Putting 3 or 4 instruments plus vocals into one small combo on the floor is just counterintuitive. You need two stand mounted speakers to project and acheive more realistic imaging. If you're looking to go simple, small, and relatively inexpensive, there's the Yamaha Stagepas with the little mixer that stores in one of the speakers.

Here's a link: http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMSTAGEPAS300 - cheaper than a Coda too. Very portable.

If all you want is a little presence form the bass, you could maybe run it thru there too, but you might be better off with a small combo for "stage volume".

Hey Thanks T-Bal for the rapid response ! You gotta realize I already sunk my bucks into the Coda and so "cheaper than a Coda too" doesn't help me much now (although it could be useful to others reading this). I'm trying to work with what I got. The 2-channel Series III Coda is a pretty useful and powerful little black box. Our smaller gigs have a good deal of "acoustic factor" from all of our instruments and vocals so I'm not sure the "two stand mounted speakers to project and acheive more realistic imaging" is what is required here. We are looking for a boost but not a mondo one, otherwise we will just drag the Mackie 8-channel- big-and-heavy-speakers-on-stands PA system out.

[T-Bal]

Oh I didn't realize you already had a PA. And a Coda. Well, you could always try the Coda. I just think it would be weird taking sound from multiple sources (and locations) and feeding them all into one location. It would be like a ventriloquist band.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I agree about the last part...the sonic space would likely be weird, but it might still be better than nothing. The other issue, though, might be feedback. With a PA, you're mic is behind the speakers, and they're usually mounted up in the air. With the Coda, it'll be firing down at the floor, which might create a feedback loop with a sensitive mic. I guess the only way to find out is to try it.

[Akami]

Originally Posted by Bob Knebel

It seems to me that if I run an "efficient" high SPL 4 ohm external speaker like the Wizzy 12 that has good mid and high range response, that our sound could be pretty decent and that the "bassy" sound of the Coda's internal woofer would not take precedence over the overall sound. I would like to avoid buying more stuff (like "a small board for your LD Condenser and a pair of powered speakers") and try to maximize the use of my current Coda amp for smaller gigs. With a external speaker like a Wizzy then I am also able to have plenty of room for bass (only) on louder / outdoor jobs.

I would appreciate any other opinions about this proposed set-up. If there aren't any, then I will truly know that I am crazy and I will go back to my corner and realize for the umpteenth time that I have a lot to learn about amplification in live situations. Thanks!

I used my CodaII for several months last year to do a solo acoustic act, running my Adamas into one channel and Audio Technica AE6100 into the other and found it to work very well at lower volumes.

As the night got louder it had a harder time keeping up with background noise and I considered bringing an extension speaker to get a bit more volume but ended up bringing one of my Bose PAS w/sub instead.

Still, if the Coda was all I had I think it should work, especially with the extension speaker, which not only would increase speaker area but also get as much power out of the amp as possible.

Main thing to look out for I suppose would be trying to cover too big an area and keeping an eye on the volume level.

[T-Bal]

Is that Casey Casum?

[Jake deVilliers]

Bob, I figure ANYBODY can afford a teeny board like the Behringer MX602A.

http://www.behringer.com/MX602A/index.cfm?lang=eng

These guys go for $30-40 on Epay and have very acceptable mic pre's. It would leave a spot for you to plug in the onboard mic from your bass and/or your pickup if you prefer that.

Then all you need are a couple of powered speakers and you're set.

I just bought a nice Behringer UB2442FX-Pro mixer for our band - 10 mic preamps, 16 channels in all, to go with our growing collection of Apex LD Condensers. We'll have to borrow or rent some powered speakers for now, but it sure gives us a lot of flexibility along with very accurate sound.

Heck, I'd lend you our Behringer 1604 if you weren't so far away!

[seanm]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

Bob, I figure ANYBODY can afford a teeny board like the Behringer MX602A.

http://www.behringer.com/MX602A/index.cfm?lang=eng

These guys go for $30-40 on Epay and have very acceptable mic pre's. It would leave a spot for you to plug in the onboard mic from your bass and/or your pickup if you prefer that.

Then all you need are a couple of powered speakers and you're set.

I'm interested in why you would recommend a mixer and powered speakers rather than a powered mixer and passive speakers. I'm looking at getting a small P.A. for a band and just assumed I would go the powered mixer route.

[Jake deVilliers]

The powered mixers I have used have pretty rudimentary controls for each channel, much like the Fender (?) we used in my high school rock band a thousand years ago. No faders either.

The mixers have more choices: you can send some channels for outboard processing, say a compressor to really make Bob's single mic gig shine or a reverb unit or you can take all eight signals out direct to a recording unit from the pre-fader side of the channel while still mixing from the board for the house.

The separate mixer allows us to start with cheesy powered speakers then move to better ones with a sub maybe or to two mono amps and some fantastic passive speakers.
With two mono amps, if one goes down, we could still play through one (at half power) and do the show.

With the mixer we can just take it to a restaurant and plug it into the house amp. Our basic settings are there on the board and we're sounding good right away (I hope!)

We can (and do) record practises live to hard disc straight from the board and we might end up doing our CD this way.

Am I making sense? Sometimes I worry too much.

[seanm]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

Am I making sense? Sometimes I worry too much.

Yup! I think you are basically saying you have more options with the mixer rather than the powered mixer. Much like having a pre/power amp setup rather than a head.

[panos]

Your question gives me the chance to mention that I use the Focus 2R-II as a mini PA system. There is about a year that I'm doing this with succes and I'm very pleased with the results.
I combine the head amp with the Epi10, the Epi12, or with both of them. It depends always on the place that the band plays. The nessecity to do this, is because it is very difficult to find coffee shops or bars that we usually play, with PA systems.

The Focus 2R-II is a great unit for this purpose. The 2 different channels can theoritically give the possibility to have 1 input for a micro (dynamic or condenser) and 3 inputs for instruments. How this? With the send-return effects loop. You can add an instrument (guitar, piano, sax) having its own external preamp, to the return effects input. With this way the signal goes directly to the power amplification.
I know that it could sound extreme, or that it can sometimes result in a not very good quality of sound, but in most cases it works!

How I use it?
First channel:
The 1st channel goes for my DB (pickup+mic). I connect the pickup usually to the low Z input, so I have all the EQ facilities of the 1st channel, notch and high pass filter. On my bass is mounted also the K&K Golden Bullet mic with its little box-preamp on the tailpiece. The output of the small mic preamp goes to the return-effects input of the 1st channel. I adjust the volume of the mic with the effects level control, which controls the volume of the "returned" signal. Simply, in this case, the "returned" signal is in reality another signal, a different signal from an external source.

Second channel:
The input of the 2nd channel is an XLR input for mic. This always goes for the singer. I use a Shure Beta 58A and there is always more than enough gain before feedback.
The return-effects input of this 2nd channel sometimes is used by the mic signal of the sax player, specially when we play in noisy places and we need to amplify the sax.

Obviously, the way that I use the Focus is far away than having a real PA system. But, for our limited needs it works perfect!

[fdeck]

I treat my second bass amp as a PA that I can use in a pinch. Adding the cone midrange that is in a separate box, it is really a full range system with ample power for combo gigs.