Combating Feedback

[bopeuph]

I tried to use my upright bass in a country band for a while. Since the band plays so loud, I tried to boost the volume, but that results in massive feedback.

A friend of mine, an electric bassist, and much more of a gearhead than I am, said rather than a parametric EQ, I should get one of those Boss seven band EQ pedals. I was told that parametrics are hard to use if you don't know what you're doing.

Right now, the only pre I own is a BBE 383, but I'm planning to get a PMB-II as soon as I can afford one. I was also thinking, if I don't get the Boss EQ pedal, how about a rack mounted graphic EQ? I was told, though, that it would have to be connected after the pre and before the power amp.

So, what's the best bet for cutting frequencies?

Nick

[Jumpno]

it could just be something as small as people having their cell phones on

[Uncletoad]

We need more information to be of assistance.

Is this with your Kay Bass? What is your signal chain? IE what Strings, Pickup, Preamp, Amp, Speaker, are you using? Where is the amp? Is the feedback coming from the PA or your rig?

DB feedback issues are not solved by EQ. That is a last resort for those who have yet to understand modern methods of amplifying the instrument. What you are experiencing is why the Fender Bass was designed in the first place. Only in the last 10 or 15 years has it been possible to amplify the string bass and use it in increasingly louder environments.

Give us a bit more info and we can help you ward off those pesky cell phones.

[bopeuph]

Yes, it is with my Kay.

Here's the answer to it all:

Strings: Right now, not sure (and not much of an answer), but I'm getting D'Addario Hybrids (heavy gauge).

Pickup: At the moment, one of those cheap Fishman pickups that clip on the top of the bridge. Probably get an underwood soon.

Preamp: Right now, all I have is a BBE 383. The problem was originally with a Peavey ProBass 1000, which was borrowed. I haven't yet tried it with the BBE, but I would really like to get that PMB as soon as I can afford to.

Amp: QSC MX1500. It's in the shop right now to fix channel 2. Until then, I'm borrowing a Crest CA6.

Speaker: A real nice EA sound 15" woofer. It was given to me by a friend who had it sitting around to replace my blown 15". He says it's 400 watts in 8 ohms, but the speaker repairman says it's 200 only by checking the weight of the cabinet. He told me about four months ago that it was 350 when he looked at it outside the cabinet. I'm so confused about it, but it still sounds great.

The rig is usually directly behind me. The feedback is coming from the rig, most likely because it's so close. I just remembered about feedback doing an outside gig with a big band and a combo I was borrowing. I don't like to be too far away from the amp because I like to make quick adjustments.

I have a few nice pieces with my overall bass and rig right now, and I'm slowly accumulating more ideal equipment. I probably won't do too many more pop culture genres of music with the upright any more, because of the lack of appreciation compared with the amount of work and risk involved in bringing my upright to one of those gigs. But, then there's the whole big band thing when I play outside venues. Hopefully, I won't have to ask everyone to turn off their cell phones (I usually turn mine off so it doesn't interfere with the speaker).

Nick

[Uncletoad]

Yea that stuff is going to howl like a pig.

None of it is going to help you play with much volume before feedback and EQ won't help at all.

Are you willing to dedicate any money to that signal chain? If so how much?

Strings: If you like them you're fine. Spend the money on the other stuff.

Pickup: The Fishman BP100 is hard to get a good sound with. Not impossible but really tough. Underwood works well. Full circle if you have adjusters is worth consideration.

Preamp: Nothing you mentioned so far is worth the effort. For loud playing phase reversal and/or high pass filtering is very useful. The preamp needs to match up to the pickup. Get the right head and you won't need an outboard preamp.

Amp: Everything you mentioned is to heavy and not worth the effort. Nobody who plays DB regularly that I know uses those PA amps or the PV stuff.

Speaker: 15's are the toughest to get a good DB sound from. Again not impossible but tough. Smaller boxes, and/or small multiple driver boxes seem to work better to get loud without feedback. To much rumble from a 15 and not enough mids. EQ can help a bit there. Roll off a ton of low end under 120 hz. That's where most of the howling is.

In a perfect world I'd chuck all that stuff but the bass. Peruse the Amp/Speaker forum here and see what people like and don't like. Figure out what you can afford and have at it.

Cheapest solution I can think of is to buy the Fishman Pro Platinum EQ for use on that pickup. Learn how to use it's features. Plug it into the BBE preamp/QSC amp/15" speaker you have. Run the BBE flat and just use the Fishman pre to fix your sound.

Get the speaker up off the floor. Use the phase reversal on the preamp and the high pass filter. Put something through the afterlength of the strings that will dampen the vibrations there. I used to use a tennis elbow velcro thing from CVS. It worked great. Play lots of gigs that way and save all the money for better pickup/amp/speaker in the future. Read TB and ask more questions.

Edit: And another thing. Make sure the Fishman is installed properly. They need to be perfectly flat against the bridge and very tightly put on.

[bopeuph]

I really would like a nice rig for jazz. I don't know how much I'm willing to spend, as I don't have much money now, but I'm hoping that will change when I make my move closer to Orlando for possibly more gigs, and will be working for an old mentor while getting some much desired practice time in, all the while staying at the parents' home to save money on rent.

I definitely will be buying the Hybrids as the old strings are just done. I need something newer. I bought the bass with those strings last year, and I don't think the guy I got it from ever changed those strings.

A few questions: I have already heard a LOT about the PMB-II on this board. Are you saying it won't work with my pickup? Or is it that it would need to go with a different rig? Also, I saw an SWR California Blonde at a store, and I heard it would sound great with an upright. Any thoughts on that?

Nick

[anon_6j591b0]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

DB feedback issues are not solved by EQ.

Unless you're using a mic in which case a parametric EQ is pretty much the only practical way to solve the feedback problem when it arises...that or decrease the volume which is not always an acceptable option.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by bopeuph

A few questions: I have already heard a LOT about the PMB-II on this board. Are you saying it won't work with my pickup? Or is it that it would need to go with a different rig? Also, I saw an SWR California Blonde at a store, and I heard it would sound great with an upright. Any thoughts on that?

Nick

PMB-II is a nice box. Hard to find. Out of production for awhile. If you can find one it would work fine with your pickup but it won't drive a power amp directly. Neither will the Fishman Pre I suggested.

When you heard the Cali Blonde would sound great with an upright was that from a DB player that actually used one on gigs? I'd bet not. They are designed for Acoustic Guitars. They are enough money that you could buy some stuff much better suited to your purposes than that.

Here's a good resource. Everything he has is good.

Bob Gollihur Online Bass Stuff

Look at what people around here are using day in and out.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by jbonny

Unless you're using a mic in which case a parametric EQ is pretty much the only practical way to solve the feedback problem when it arises...that or decrease the volume which is not always an acceptable option.

I disagree. If you are EQing out feedback on a gig where you are using only a mic I'd suggest you are too loud for a mic as the only source.

If thats all you have at the gig you didn't do your homework.

All to often EQ is used to combat source and use problems rather than sculpting tone. When you go down that road tone goes down the tubes and you start chasing your tail.

[el_mariachi]

if it hasn't been mentioned already, don't stand directly in front of your rig. If at all possible stand beside it or off to an angle in front of it. Having that large 15" speaker throwing sound waves right at your bass is a nasty formula for feedback.

[anon_6j591b0]

I just finished working for the third year in a row a run as a tech on an international jazz festival and have heard some excellent players like Dwanye Burno and Ben Wolfe among many others get great sounds in a 2000 seat theatre with only a mic. Having grilled the very, very experienced FOH and monitor techs on how it was done and based on my own experience the only way to use a mic loud enough to compete with an 8' open Steinway is by finding and slicing out very narrow Q problem frequencies. Good parametric EQ's aren't cheap though and require a very artful and delicate touch to use successfully.

It may not be practical for some players to do themselves but to say feedback can't be solved with a parametric EQ or isn't the right way is just plain wrong.

[bopeuph]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

PMB-II is a nice box. Hard to find. Out of production for awhile. If you can find one it would work fine with your pickup but it won't drive a power amp directly. Neither will the Fishman Pre I suggested.

So then, I'm a little confused. Do you feed these pres into a head, or a combo, or what? What's in a proper signal chain for an upright bass?

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

When you heard the Cali Blonde would sound great with an upright was that from a DB player that actually used one on gigs? I'd bet not. They are designed for Acoustic Guitars. They are enough money that you could buy some stuff much better suited to your purposes than that.

Actually, I actually heard it from an electric bassist. I'll take your word for it.

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

Here's a good resource. Everything he has is good.

Bob Gollihur Online Bass Stuff

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

Look at what people around here are using day in and out.

Already doing.

Nick

[Matthijs]

A fishman platinum preamp can be used directly into a power amp. I've done so lots of times on amps in the house backline in bars.

If you want to improve your sound something like the fishman would be a good idea to start with as a quick fix. I'ts not that expensive, the fase reversal switch and highpass filter work wonders on feedback, and it allows you to play on all kinds of gear for the time you don't have the money to buy something good.

Having said that, when you're improving your signal chain, it's always a good idea to star at the beginning (the pickup) and slowly work your way up from there.

[el_mariachi]

But be aware that the Fishman Pro-EQ platinum bass preamp doesn't send a very hot signal for use with a power amp. I was originally going to do that but after research and personal experience, realized that it just wasn't loud enough. Note, I was using it with a SWR workingman's 10 into the effects return. It was significantly quieter than if I ran straight into the input on that amp. BUT, other than that I thought the preamp was a great piece of gear.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by jbonny

It may not be practical for some players to do themselves but to say feedback can't be solved with a parametric EQ or isn't the right way is just plain wrong.

Yes that is absolutely correct. I don't believe I said feedback problems can't be solved with EQ I believe I said DB feedback problems are not solved by EQ. Semantics yes but you are pressing me to be specific.

So to be specific, EQ when used with prudence in conjunction with the best sources and output gear available can be very good at controlling feedback and sound sculpting to make an excellent sound reinforcement result.

In this context our poster's problems are not going to be solved by EQ. All to often people try to combat source, equipment, and placement issues with EQ when they really need to improve their sources or output gear. Especially when you are using low end stuff.

Originally Posted by jbonny

Having grilled the very, very experienced FOH and monitor techs on how it was done and based on my own experience the only way to use a mic loud enough to compete with an 8' open Steinway is by finding and slicing out very narrow Q problem frequencies. Good parametric EQ's aren't cheap though and require a very artful and delicate touch to use successfully

Yes once again absolutely correct. This fellow isn't anywhere near what you are talking about. The majority of the posters on the forum aren't either.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by bopeuph

So then, I'm a little confused. Do you feed these pres into a head, or a combo, or what? What's in a proper signal chain for an upright bass?

Pickup and or Mic as source into a preamp to buffer if needed. That preamp into a combo, or standalone head/amp/speaker.

Use a preamp if the front end of your combo or amp is not compatible with a Piezo or doesn't have the appropriate controls to manipulate a piezo.

In your case the BBE isn't not really compatible with a piezo and doesn't have some of the control that is useful for higher volume playing. As such if you keep that stuff an outboard preamp could be of use.

I use a Full Circle into a Focus 2RIII into a Euphonic Audio VL208. No additional preamp is needed there. I don't have any feedback problems.

I have used preamps to match the pickup before including the PMB II, TD-100, Fishman Proplatinum, Baggs Paracoustic DI etc.

I prefer to bring less stuff to the gig these days.

[bopeuph]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

This fellow isn't anywhere near what you are talking about. The majority of the posters on the forum aren't either.

Heh. I just didn't know it got this complicated. I guess I'll learn it well as I go along, but I just want to get back to sheddin' scales and killin ii-V-I licks.

Nick

[bopeuph]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

Pickup and or Mic as source into a preamp to buffer if needed. That preamp into a combo, or standalone head/amp/speaker.

Use a preamp if the front end of your combo or amp is not compatible with a Piezo or doesn't have the appropriate controls to manipulate a piezo.

In your case the BBE isn't not really compatible with a piezo and doesn't have some of the control that is useful for higher volume playing. As such if you keep that stuff an outboard preamp could be of use.

I use a Full Circle into a Focus 2RIII into a Euphonic Audio VL208. No additional preamp is needed there. I don't have any feedback problems.

I have used preamps to match the pickup before including the PMB II, TD-100, Fishman Proplatinum, Baggs Paracoustic DI etc.

I prefer to bring less stuff to the gig these days.

So what you're saying is, get a good pre like the PMB, and eventually work into a better rig after the pre?

I was always under the impression that a head is just a power amp with a built in pre, and a combo is a speaker cab with a built in pre and power amp. So, I'm still confused as to why a power amp doesn't work with a high impedance preamp.

Now, for small combo gigs, I assume I would want to use something smaller, right? I used to go unplugged mostly, but depending on who is in the group, I may need the extra amplification.

Nick

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by bopeuph

So what you're saying is, get a good pre like the PMB, and eventually work into a better rig after the pre?

I was always under the impression that a head is just a power amp with a built in pre, and a combo is a speaker cab with a built in pre and power amp. So, I'm still confused as to why a power amp doesn't work with a high impedance preamp.

Now, for small combo gigs, I assume I would want to use something smaller, right? I used to go unplugged mostly, but depending on who is in the group, I may need the extra amplification.

Nick

There is a difference in the outputs of buffering preamps like the PMB and the Fishman and the preamps driving power amps. The buffering preamps aren't designed to drive power amps, they drive other preamps.

I use the same rig for all my DB gigs big and small. If I need to be louder in the house they have a PA and I use that.

And what I'm saying is if you have lots of dough dump all that stuff and start over. If not, buy a buffering preamp and work out from there.

Amplifying the DB properly is a bitch. That's where Fender Basses came from.

[bopeuph]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

There is a difference in the outputs of buffering preamps like the PMB and the Fishman and the preamps driving power amps. The buffering preamps aren't designed to drive power amps, they drive other preamps.

Aah. I think I'm finally starting to understand.

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

I use the same rig for all my DB gigs big and small. If I need to be louder in the house they have a PA and I use that.

Ok, that's what I do now with my rig, which I use with my electric. Just want a good sounding upright bass for small and large gigs.

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

And what I'm saying is if you have lots of dough dump all that stuff and start over. If not, buy a buffering preamp and work out from there.

Well, I don't have much bread, and I don't see myself making much too soon. I think I will get that PMB and save up for a nice upright bass amp.

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

Amplifying the DB properly is a bitch. That's where Fender Basses came from.

I think I read that yesterday at Barnes and Noble in some antique guitars book.

Nick