Converting my EB to a DB rig

[peterpalmieri]

Hey guys,

I know there are a million and one opinions on heads, cabinets etc for db and doubling. My current EB rig is a Epifani UL502, I have Bag End S15XD & S15D as cabinets. I also own an EA IAMP 350 which at this point just serves as a back up. I also own with a few other guys a PA which among other things contains Bagend TA2000's an S18 Sub and 4 JBL Eon 10 monitors.

I don't want to put to much money into my rig I'd prefer to sell / trade a few pieces to get myself the optimal set up (not touching the PA equipment obviously).

I should have started by saying, I love my EB rig, I play a passive bass and like that Jamerson sound I get from the 15s. I know it's not Neo and the Bag End cabinets do put me in the Chiropractors office fairly regularly but I am honestly scared to give up what I consider to be the ultimate EB rig, it is however debatable on how important that second 15 is, my club date band has a great PA and we also play many places that have really good house systems. I will also mention I use the 2 channel switching function on the Epi very regularly to swap from a motown sound to modern slap/funk. A convenience I could live with out but I'm not sure I'd want to. A few things I could do:

1. Sell the EA and purchase a 1x10 cabinet to pair with my Epi head.
2. Sell one of the bag Ends 15's and get a new EA Wizzy 110 to pair with the ea (that breaks up my EB rig though)
3. Scrap everything and start fresh....ideas please....

Another thought is a GK MB150, I had used a MB200 for EB and DB all through my HS and college days, not quite the most transparent but very portable for DB. I am a little concerned with the AI amps and the debate over muddyness and the omnidirectional sub woofer.

I have very recently got back into playing DB so this isn't something I need tomorrow but hopefully I'll bring my level of playing up that this will be important in the near future.

Thanks in advance for you considerations........

Pete

[Freddels]

I haven't heard the Epi head but the iAmp should be fine and I'd say just get a smaller cab to pair with it (Wizzy 12, Wizzy 10, Epi UL110).

I have an iAmp 500 and a WW M-100 that I use with either a Wizzy 12 or the Epi UL110. They sound great.

So if you must sell anything then I'd say get rid of a 15 and get a small cab and you should be all set.

[Uncletoad]

First you need to throw out what you know about bass amplification. DB is a different monster. The EB has very little sound of it's own and it relies on strings and magnetics to create a sound wave that is amplified significantly past what it can do on it's own.

The DB is an acoustic instrument designed to create enough of its own volume to need nothing but itself. It relies on strings/wood/air to create its sound wave. But we need more of course so we try to make it louder with amps designed for the strings/magnet thing.

Herein lies the paradigm shift. To sound right you must play the bass like the acoustic instrument it is to get the right sound out of it. You then try to get that sound louder still.

The signal going into amps from DB is very different than EB. It's already loud and the very thing that make it loud (the vibrating plates of wood) now can get in your way as you try to amplify it with EB stuff. Feedback in it's myriad forms is the big issue.

Here are some things I've found that are useful.

For DB smaller works better. Less feedback issues. The dual 15 thing would be very messy on a DB. Multiple small drivers or a single 12 or something like that is more useful than big drivers unless you can get behind the big guns and stay out of their way.

EQ OUT the bass rather than add it. Start flat and use nothing if you can. Avoid the bass player impulse to turn up the bass knob. Better to turn down the bass knob and turn up the volume knob than the other way round.

Phase reversal is your friend. It gets the speaker and the bass plates moving away from each other and adds several db while cleaning up your sound.

High pass filters are your friend. Subsonics overload amplifiers and can waste power otherwise useful for large waves.

Speakers up off the floor can be good for the same reasons as above.

Keep your bass far away from floor monitors and kick drums. They add more mess to your sound.

Rely on the front of house for your Volume and low end. Use your stage rig merely as a monitor to hear yourself and be in tune.

Keep the PA subs off the stage floor. Your dead meat if you don't.

None of what you are using for EB is particularly useful for DB. Read all the threads and you'll see some commonalities that will help your choices.

For example: For EB I like an old tube SVT with an 810. For DB I use an Acoustic Image Focus 2RIII and a Euphonic Audio VL208. 800 watts and 2 8" speakers. For all my gigs from tiny dinner music to large halls with big PA support.

Pickups and strings are a whole nuther thing. Welcome to hell.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

Hey guys,

I know there are a million and one opinions on heads, cabinets etc for db and doubling. My current EB rig is a Epifani UL502, I have Bag End S15XD & S15D as cabinets. I also own an EA IAMP 350 which at this point just serves as a back up. I also own with a few other guys a PA which among other things contains Bagend TA2000's an S18 Sub and 4 JBL Eon 10 monitors.

Pete,
Phil is right on the money with all his suggestions. Here's what I would reccommend that you do.

"3. Scrap everything and start fresh....ideas please...."

Your EA 350 is from what I understand a pretty sought after amplifier
since it's a analog unit, and some players liked the sound of that amp better than the newer EA models. I'd sell it, save some money, and get a Whizzy 10, and the Acoustic Image Claris III since that eliminates the whole AI Cabinet thing. That would be the "premium option". EA also makes a new Micro head that sounds like a winner but I haven't heard one yet.

On the other hand, the GK 150 is far cheaper than the EA, AI setup and might be better for a "new first rig" it just won't sound quite as good. Be aware the the newer GK's IMHO lack a lot of the warmth that the 200MB's did, personally I like the MBS better, but the midrange EQ is limited on that model vs the MBE.

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

I have very recently got back into playing DB so this isn't something I need tomorrow but hopefully I'll bring my level of playing up that this will be important in the near future.

Thanks in advance for you considerations........

Pete

Good Luck

Ric

[bolo]

I nominate this for a link on the DB newbie page, otherwise known as AMPS & PICKUPS Links and FAQ.

Mods?

[peterpalmieri]

Well that was some useful information and maybe a little more then I even asked for....

Fred...I do like the idea of a UL110 or maybe the new Wizzy 10. I will have to try running the DB with the Epi as I haven't heard or found many positives or negatives. It does seem that Christine McBride runs the Epi although I am not sure he doesn't bypass it for his DB.

Phil....I am pretty well aware that my 15s are not going to cut it with the DB that is the one given and BTW I don't plan on using the upright with my club date band so the issue with the subs, feedback etc. will probably not be an issue. I am more concerned with maybe a big band or amplified trio.

Ric...Are you saying the IAMP 350 is not good for DB? I have found it to be transparent with anything I have plugged into it and have read many positives on the site regarding it's use with DB. I don't think I am going to shell out the cash for an AI at this point.


Thanks for all the useful information. To further define my concern or desire it is small venue amplification needs, if I do have serious volume needs in the future I can go direct into the PA that is at my disposal. So small 1x10, 2x8 etc. with one of my existing heads or a small combo is probably going to be the trick. While I've heard really wonderful things about the VL208 I am hoping not to lug around a cabinet of that size or weight with my DB.....

Pete

PS - I have read just about every article and post on this site regarding equipment etc and am just trying to make something work without having to shell out serious coin or buy a flat bed to haul gear around with.

[Uncletoad]

Brain dump on mini rigs has the most current thinking for tiny rigs.

Brain dump on future small rigs

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by bolo

I nominate this for a link on the DB newbie page, otherwise known as AMPS & PICKUPS Links and FAQ.

Mods?

Done.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

Well that was some useful information and maybe a little more then I even asked for....


Ric...Are you saying the IAMP 350 is not good for DB? I have found it to be transparent with anything I have plugged into it and have read many positives on the site regarding it's use with DB. I don't think I am going to shell out the cash for an AI at this point.

Pete,
Absloutely not, The IAMP 350 is a very nice amp for DB. Unfortunately, it may be the most valuable peice of "spare gear" that you had on hand. Sorry if I mislead you. I had the mistaken impression that you wanted to sell it.

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

While I've heard really wonderful things about the VL208 I am hoping not to lug around a cabinet of that size or weight with my DB.....
Pete

Pete,
You're right it's a little on the heavy side, but I played through just about every thing I can think of and the trade off is that it's the best DB cabinet avaliable, at least for now. IMHO you should get a Whizzy 10 or 12 when you have the cash and run it with the IAMP 350.

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

PS - I have read just about every article and post on this site regarding equipment etc and am just trying to make something work without having to shell out serious coin or buy a flat bed to haul gear around with.

Pete,
That's always going to be a problem with a satisfactory DB rig they tend to be a little more expensive because the parameters of the instrument kind of demand that.

Ric

[peterpalmieri]

Phil...Thanks for the link I had hit that thread a few days ago but it was good to reread, why in the heck doesn't EA make the VL 108 & 208 it seems that everyone wants one.....

Ric....Thanks for clarifying your stance on the IAMP 350....

So best option is to try and find a cab with 8" drivers or get a single 10 EA or Epi? I'll have to have one of those cabinets before I can see if the Epi is going to work. If it does game on if not the EA should work?

I seem to be getting somewhere with my thoughts now.

1. Leave the Epi bag end rig for EB (maybe get rid of the S15D)
2. Buy a Epi or EA 1x10 (try pairing with the epi and/or EA head)
3. Find a VL 108 or 208
4. Replace my bag ends with UL110s

The difficult piece to this is that it is very hard to try this stuff out, I'll have to go on faith!

Pete

[peterpalmieri]

The LDS 2x8 weighs 38lbs that's crazy and a search for reviews of the Epifani UL502 with a DB turned up nothing.

[bolo]

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

Phil...Thanks for the link I had hit that thread a few days ago but it was good to reread, why in the heck doesn't EA make the VL 108 & 208 it seems that everyone wants one.....

Pete,

I think these two threads might help answer your question about the VL-208 no longer being in production.

And plucked from another thread, here is a thought re: the 108. Same reasoning as above (& below) I reckon.

In a nutshell:

Originally Posted by bolo

The short story on the VL-208's as far as I can tell - Not profitable enough.

Complicated to build. Perhaps underrated and underappreciated at the time. Didn't sell enough of them at the price point they were at to make enough net profit. Way more EB players than DB players out there (although the cab sounds great w/ both according to many folks). Couldn't just increase their margin by raising the MSRP, since then they'd probably sell even less of 'em.

So maybe that's why they stopped. Plus, nowadays, like Ric Vice said, the trend is smaller & lighter. For speakers cabs (e.g. neo's), computers, cell phones, lots of stuff. So re-introducing the VL-208 now or a CM-208 would be contrary to those trends I reckon.

I dunno, maybe I got some or all of that wrong.

Originally Posted by Mike Dimin

Although I do not think they were underaprreciated, I think thye rest of your assertions are pretty much on target.

[Freddels]

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

. . . a search for reviews of the Epifani UL502 with a DB turned up nothing.

I can only guess on this but the UL502 costs about twice as much as an iAmp 500 (for about the same watts). For the price of the UL502, a DB player would probably opt for the Focus or the iAmp 800 (or you're almost getting into WW price range). But it would probably sound good (you won't know until you try it).

[bolo]

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

... a search for reviews of the Epifani UL502 with a DB turned up nothing.

Pete, you're right. I could not find a lot of posts re: the Epi UL-502 head w/ DB either. But actually I did find a couple.

Epifani UL 502

Looking at Epifani UL-502

Maybe you could try to PM or email some of the folks in these threads like hensonbass for more info. macmrkt too maybe.

[Uncletoad]

In your thoughts don't discount the Wizzy M line 12. $550 new I think. I used that on a gig and found it outstanding.

...and I hate everything so that's saying something.

If I didn't have a VL208 that's the cab I'd be using. With the little IAmp you've got it may be just the ticket. You could easily double with it.

[peterpalmieri]

Bolo....good find on those Epi threads I didn't find those. At least some positive news.

Since I only have 15" cabinets it is going to be tough to AB the Epi and the EA......I'll have to hold onto the 2 until I can find a reasonable DB cabinet to at least borrow.

Or I can wait around like a hawk for a VL208 to pop up, very unlikely....

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

Phil...Thanks for the link I had hit that thread a few days ago but it was good to reread, why in the heck doesn't EA make the VL 108 & 208 it seems that everyone wants one.....

Pete, From what I know EA is currently working with their prototype CM 208 and some new neo drivers that are now avaliable. It will be awhile on this particular cabinet because John Dong at EA is a very exacting fellow with his products and that's a good thing.

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

So best option is to try and find a cab with 8" drivers or get a single 10 EA or Epi? I'll have to have one of those cabinets before I can see if the Epi is going to work. If it does game on if not the EA should work?

Pete,
Either the EA NM 208 (Hopefully coming soon), LDS 2X8, Epifani 110, or the EA Whizzy 110 or 112 will work very nicely. My preference is with the EA's especially the Whizzy 12 M line because of the transmission line design. It gives you more bass response out of a smaller cabinet. Either way I'd go with a 4 ohm version of the cabinet.

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

1. Leave the Epi bag end rig for EB (maybe get rid of the S15D)
2. Buy a Epi or EA 1x10 (try pairing with the epi and/or EA head)
3. Find a VL 108 or 208
4. Replace my bag ends with UL110s

Pete,
Option 3 will probably be a very time consuming persuit. It took me 2 years to find a 208. Remember the VL 208 weights 47 lbs. It's not an awkard shape, but it's heavier than the LDS. While we are on that subject Don Oatman of LDS now has the light weight poplar plywood that's similar to what Epifani uses.
and a new more powerful neo driver. So he could quite possibly build you a lighter cabinet. EA VL 108's are not often offered up for sale. I haven't personally seen one for several years. They weigh 27 lbs.

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

The difficult piece to this is that it is very hard to try this stuff out, I'll have to go on faith!
Pete

Pete,
Most of the stuff I have is used. I bought both the VL 208 and The LDS 3 way 2X8 "on faith" with the guidance of Macmarkt, Phil Maneri, Rob Grow, and Chris Fitzgerald. These guys know what they are talking about.

Ric

[peterpalmieri]

I am starting to lean towards a few options.

1. Purchasing a new Wizzy 10 to use with my IAMP350 and leave the EB rig as is Epi 502 / 2 BE S15s...

2. Convert my currrent set up to Epi UL 502 / Ul110 / UL 112 and it should be suffiecient for either....(A little concerned with breaking up my eb rig)

3. If I could unload one BE S15 and replace it with a 1x10 or 1x8 of choice. Two smaller rigs.

The first is more expensive but sounds like it will work well, it doesn't leave room for doubling.....

The second is a little drastic but if I am happy could solve all my problems including reducing weight!

The third would cost very little and would be a quick fix...


Pete

[Chace90]

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

I am starting to lean towards a few options.

1. Purchasing a new Wizzy 10 to use with my IAMP350 and leave the EB rig as is Epi 502 / 2 BE S15s...

2. Convert my currrent set up to Epi UL 502 / Ul110 / UL 112 and it should be suffiecient for either....(A little concerned with breaking up my eb rig)

3. If I could unload one BE S15 and replace it with a 1x10 or 1x8 of choice. Two smaller rigs.

The first is more expensive but sounds like it will work well, it doesn't leave room for doubling.....

The second is a little drastic but if I am happy could solve all my problems including reducing weight!

The third would cost very little and would be a quick fix...


Pete

I strongly suggest keeping the Epifani UL-502. I use that and a UL-310 for both upright and electric.

I posted a brief review here.

I have a few DB gigs coming up in the next couple weeks, so hopefully I'll be able to give you a better idea of the Epi's sound with an upright. This is dumb reasoning, I know, but if Christian McBride can pull off his sound with Epi gear, it should be possible for anyone else. Granted he uses a mic too...

[peterpalmieri]

I am really now starting to consider selling me EA IAMP 350 and my 2 bag end cabinets and convert my set up to Epi UL 502 / Ul110 / UL 112 (I already have the 502).

The 110 can handle all DB gigs. The 112 should be able to handle EB gigs and combined when I need some headroom.

That sounds like it would suit my DB needs perfectly, but might leave me short on EB when I have an outdoor gig playing R&B, motown, funk & disco....

The other option is UL110 & UL310.....The 110 can handle all small gigs and the 310 would handle everything else.

I still can't shake the feeling that I may lose bottom end when I dump the 15's....But the DB sound should be perfect?

Maybe not?????

Pete