Could use some serious help...

[VincentPuleo]

I have been having problems with my equitment for as long as I can remember... First with pick-ups. First I get the Fishman, it never cuts through the Big Band I play with and the director said he couldn't hear me... So then I go for the Realist no offense agaisnt David Gage but this thing is working as well for me as the fishman did. No matter what I do with the amp or anything I sounds no where close to a real bass.

After some reasearch I think I am going for the K and K bass max with the pre amp... would you guys recommend this?

Also a bigger problems is my amp. I first bought a GK 400 Watt 1 15 inch cabnet with a GK backline 600 300 Watt head. People recommended GK's for upright but I have played on 80 wat amps that can get mor power with an upright... I thought there would be something wrong with it, however it got checked out and it seemed fine. Now I am playing with the shools old Hartke... 200 Watts. This one cuts through better then the GK but the only way it can get loud enough without feeding is when the highs are way up and the lows down... it sounds horrible.

Sorry for all these lame quiestions, but please help a brother out.

thanks a lot

[adbass]

It is difficult to compete with a big band in terms of volume. However, it can be done. how long have you been playing? filling out your profile would be helpful.

[VincentPuleo]

I have been playing for about 4 years, I am not a theroy master or anything like that, but I can walk at 300 which is all they really need.

I just started taking privare lessons as well...

could use some help with my question though

thanks

[adbass]

given the equipment you are using, you should be heard. I'd talk to your director and get some detailed criticism about what it is he'd like from you. be open to his criticism and take it to heart.

lessons will help too. equipment is not the end-all. technique influences clarity. in a big way.

[VincentPuleo]

Its more of having a good sound and being heard... my bass when amplified sounds nothing like a bass...

can anybody reccomend better amps.

[adbass]

starting at the top:
Walter Woods. top choice, more than enough power. there's one on sale here for 2.5K.

Acoustic Image. Very nice, lightweight portable. The Focus is here: http://www.acousticimg.com/products/prod_focus.html

pair these with euphonic audio or epifani cabs to your liking. The pickups you are using (assuming they are both fully functional) should be fine in terms of volume. Tonewise, the fishman full circle is king IMHO. You may consider a microphone. Search the threads for information regarding diff mics.

[fingers]

I think you should focus on making a great sound acoustically. Forget the amp and pickup for a minute. I have talked about this a bunch of times. A big, full, cutting sound acoustically is going to be a usable sound regardless of pickup. Certain pickups match better with certain amps and basses. No question. You are going to get plenty of advice here about that stuff. I think it is equally if not more important to really scrutinize how you are producing the sound acoustically.

Look at Jimmy Blanton, Walter Page, Milt Hinton, etc. They swung the **** out of some very powerful big bands without all the pickup and amp technology we have now.

[adbass]

Originally Posted by fingers

I think you should focus on making a great sound acoustically. Forget the amp and pickup for a minute. I have talked about this a bunch of times. A big, full, cutting sound acoustically is going to be a usable sound regardless of pickup. Certain pickups match better with certain amps and basses. No question. You are going to get plenty of advice here about that stuff. I think it is equally if not more important to really scrutinize how you are producing the sound acoustically.

Look at Jimmy Blanton, Walter Page, Milt Hinton, etc. They swung the **** out of some very powerful big bands without all the pickup and amp technology we have now.

yes.

[MingusAmongUs]

+1 to fingers. it's a matter of opinion about which pickup/amp is going to sound like the bass acoustic (none of them will, let's face it). But in addition to working on your acoustic sound (which presumably you're doing now with your teacher), let's also consider that maybe your pickup(s) has(have) been installed incorrectly. The Realist should make full contact with the top table of the bass and the entire bass foot of your bridge. It should be a real tight fit and the bridge should sit normally on top of it. Make sure it's straight and there's no space under that foot. You should not be able to move the pickup around at all after it's installed.

After you go thru that checklist, work on that left hand boyee!

Another thing to consider is that maybe there's something not quite right with the bass itself.

BTW, my personal experience with GK and Polytone amps is that they all sound terrible with a DB. Others disagree but FWIW, that's my take. You really shouldn't need tons of power once you have all these issues worked out.

[Ed Fuqua]

It's not the equipment. The beginning of the signal chain is you; getting a focused projecting sound out of the amp means that you hacve to get a focused projecting sound out of the bass first. I think that after you start doing some work on physical approach that you're going to actually be playing with less amp volume than you currently are.

There are some equipment choices that you can make, dump the 15 for a 12. What the other musicians are talking about isn't volume (you aren't loud enough), it's that they can't hear the fundamental of the note (the sound isn't defined enough). A 12 (or a couple of 10s ) will help give you a more defined sound, but it's still not going to do as much for the sound as you working on developing a warm, focused, projecting acoustic sound on the instrument.

I went through the same thing when I first started playing upright (and this is after years of playing electric bass) - different strings, different pickups, different amp, outboard EQ, parametric EQ etc etc etc. All to no avail.

What worked was developing good ear training, good right and left hand approach and learning to play a line that had some kind of meaning and intent - that I was hearing the notes I wanted to play before I played them. It's not easy and it's not quick, but you have to work on understanding, physical approach and your ear all at the same time.

[adbass]

sorry -- i was busy with work earlier. what i wanted to say was stated well by ed, fingers, and mingus. putting those fingers down and really stopping the string can make it or break it when it comes to producing loud, full and articulated notes.

your equipment is fine. you don't need to spend thousands of dollars to make a sound. more like thousands of practice hours.

[VincentPuleo]

I mean, I no it has lot to do with me, but I get a lot of meat on the string and definitely have proper left hand technique for the most part... but it can always be better. I have a 3/4 Holbien bass I feel that it isn't cutting it though.

I also use a Fender Jaco P Jazz bass in the band could you play with that out of the Acoustic Image?

Also, any recommended EQ settings... I no its deferent for anything but what d you guys use regarding low, hi, mid...

thanks again

[greitzer]

Vincent -- lots of us have fought through exactly the same battle you're going through now. As has been said by other post-ers, it can be done...it'll take patience and some experimentation.

Here are a few thoughts:

1) Talk to you teacher about the problem and see if he/she can suggest anything.

2) The suggestions about working on your technique are of utmost importance (to all of us). You'll need a strong acoustic sound regardless of which electronic rig you end up with.

3) A bridge-wing pickup like the K&K likely will produce a brighter, more trebly sound than the Realist, and it should help cut through the band noise better.

4) You mentioned you had tested the GK amp out and it checked out okay, but did you test the speaker? Try it with another amp head if you can and see if it's a speaker problem.

5) If the big band's drummer is too loud, there's not much you can do to be heard over him/her. How's the drummer?

6) Whatever amp and speaker you end up with, try propping the speaker up on a chair so it's up off the ground. Sometimes this helps.

Good luck.

[VincentPuleo]

Mingus, a guy from David Gage put it on himself so I think it is good.

John G, yeah i will definitely prop the amp on a chair tm morning at practice... I am using the Hartke now which is definitely making out better then the GK... now I don't know what to do with the GK though.

one last question... have any of you ever heard of Holbien Bass' are they considered cheap... last question thanks a again

[bolo]

All the posts above are great and full of good advice.

Here's something too. It's a paper written by fdeck that will show you how to EQ your GK 600 to get close to a "flat" freq response.

[bolo]

Originally Posted by VincentPuleo

Mingus, a guy from David Gage put it on himself so I think it is good.

That's positive.

Originally Posted by VincentPuleo

one last question... have any of you ever heard of Holbien Bass' are they considered cheap...

May be a bass made by Strunal, marketed as Holbien.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

It's not the equipment. The beginning of the signal chain is you; getting a focused projecting sound out of the amp means that you hacve to get a focused projecting sound out of the bass first. I think that after you start doing some work on physical approach that you're going to actually be playing with less amp volume than you currently are.

Bullseye.

[MR PC]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

Bullseye.

+1 on the Ed Fuqua advice. The pickup or mic on the bass is a mixed blessing......it allows you to pump up your level, but at the same time it pumps up all the other sounds it hears in the room. Your bass listens to the sounds in the room and folds them back thru your amp in a crude and distorted fashion....ALL of them.

[lfh]

Originally Posted by greitzer

5) If the big band's drummer is too loud, there's not much you can do to be heard over him/her.

+1. The above holds true for the horns as well. IME lots of hobbyist / student big bands play unnecessarily loud. Experienced players tend to use more of the available dynamics range, and will come down in level to meet you if the bass is unamplified. IMHO it should be possible at a rehearsal (assuming a decent bass and "digging in"), to keep up with the band constantly at 'mf', and at least for shorter periods of 'f' without an amp. Expect them to drown you out at 'ff' and 'fff' though.

Perhaps you could suggest such an "unplugged" experiment to the conductor / band leader? Challenge the other musicians to see if they can play soft enough to arrive at a reasonable balance. You might find that as a side effect, people improve their listening skills, and that you generally get less ear fatigue from the rehearsals. (A word of caution: Don't hurt your self when playing unamplified! Do what you can to produce a bigger tone, but it's their job to hold back.) Once the band is disciplined (hopefully!), you can turn on our amp again, not primarily to play louder, but to make playing more relaxed.

One further tool, before cranking the bass one way or another, is to experiment with placement: Putting the rhythm section in the middle might be worth trying.

Yet another "trick" is to use two amps: Use one as a monitor for yourself and your rhythm section buddies (possibly with extra highs and slightly rolled-off lows), and the other placed and pointed such that the band and audience can hear you.

[VincentPuleo]

yeah that is a lot of help, there is no way I will be able to be heard with out a amp tho, 10 sax's, 8 trumpets, 5 bones, loud drummer, plus the song is at 300 and its 8 minutes long of straight walking...

I get what you guys are saying tho and have helped a lot... I am turning my amp down little by little and recording rehearsal everyday, because after working on getting a strong tone with out an amp it makes a big difference like you guys said

groovey thanks for the help