Difficult rooms

[dar512]

I played a Mardi Gras gig last month in the church hall (lunchroom with stage). This is an awful room for acoustics. The floor is tile, the walls are concrete block. Everything bounces. Add in a talkative dinner crowd and things just get worse.

So of course the bass sounded very boomy and overloud. If I turned it down, I couldn't hear myself.

In a room like this, is there anything you can tweak that will help?

What difficult rooms have you played in and did you find anything that helped? Share your knowledge.

[hdiddy]

You need a wall to bounce some sort of sound, whether it's the amp or your acoustic sound, towards your ear so you can hear yourself. Even a plank of wood or some sort of structure behind you. Otherwise, I think you're screwed.


The last time I played something like that, I was in a big church hall with very high ceilings. We were situated in a corner (which helps alot). I put my amp right in front of the grand piano. Everybody could hear me fine, including myself.

[MaxZolt]

One of the worst rooms I've played in is actually the dining room of my house at school. Fortunately, when we've had concerts there, we set up a stage (it's a big room). However, when we just practice in there, I was having a terrible time dialing in a tone on my amp. Everything always sounded really boomy.

After some investigation, I discovered a crawl space under the floor, between the first floor and the basement, that stretched the length of the room. It was basically making the whole room resonate and ruining my tone. I solved the problem by elevating my cab off the floor, and now everything sounds fine.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

In really boomy rooms I like to get my amp off the floor, and often dial out some of the lower bass. I find it also helps to get 15-20 feet away from my amp for a soundcheck to see what the sound is like out in the room. We have a couple of rooms in town where I have a hell of a time finding a decent tone.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

In really boomy rooms I like to get my amp off the floor, and often dial out some of the lower bass.

Fiddling with the tone control or HPF?

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

I find it also helps to get 15-20 feet away from my amp for a soundcheck to see what the sound is like out in the room.

Really long instrument cable?

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Usually HPF, but occasionally the bass control as well. And yes, really long cable.

[Mark Perna]

In situations like this (big reflective room with a loud crowd) you just have to make do with what you can because the best you can do is make it sound a little less bad. It will never sound particularly good. These are horrible conditions to try to play music.

Lower volume can help with the reflections. The louder the band is, particularly the drummer, the worse you are going to sound. Encouraging the band to play at a lower overall volume (which can be tough with a loud crowd), will help reduce reflection feedback and everyone will sound a little better. You won't be heard in the room as well though.

>>As a side note, it has been my experience (and I've done thousands of these kinds of gigs) that if you are playing at an event where you are background entertainment, the lower the band volume, the more compliments about how good the band sounds you will get. Interestingly, the volume of compliments will increase until it hits a maximum when you are actually miming playing. Sadly, I am only partially kidding.<<

As far as your own personal sound goes, if you increase the bass tone control to get a fatter sound, you get boomy. If you roll it off or use a HPF, it gets unpleasantly thin. It has been my experience that in rooms like this, there is NEVER a midpoint where it actually sounds good. Twiddle the knobs (usually bass control and/or HPF) until it sounds as close to acceptable as you can get it and then forget about it and play the best you can. Strongly resist the urge to twiddle knobs between tunes because it is futile and will distract you from playing more than the mediocre sound will.

mark

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by calivox

It has been my experience that in rooms like this, there is NEVER a midpoint where it actually sounds good. Twiddle the knobs (usually bass control and/or HPF) until it sounds as close to acceptable as you can get it and then forget about it and play the best you can. Strongly resist the urge to twiddle knobs between tunes because it is futile and will distract you from playing more than the mediocre sound will.

+1

[flip18436572]

I have played bass in some rooms that sound terrible no matter what. The best thing I have done is use a rubber mat to put the bass amp on. It really helps.

[doktorfeelgood]

Some rooms will never sound good and you just have to do the best you can to get thru a gig in one. That said, it will definitely help if the whole band turns down a notch or two.
For the last 5 years I've used one of those GRAMMA isolation platforms for my bass rig and it's really helped a lot with consistancy of good bass sound. It 'de-couples" your rig from whatever floor you're on and allows you to hear just the sound of the rig. Check the link. In the review in this link, the reviewer is mainly talking about subwoofers in a Home Theatre setup, but you will get the idea as to how this thing works. They're are only about $50 bucks for the standard sized one and I highly recommend every bass player to get one. You will notice the difference. )-(

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...ma-4-2004.html

[Mark Perna]

Originally Posted by doktorfeelgood

Some rooms will never sound good and you just have to do the best you can to get thru a gig in one. That said, it will definitely help if the whole band turns down a notch or two.
For the last 5 years I've used one of those GRAMMA isolation platforms for my bass rig and it's really helped a lot with consistancy of good bass sound. It 'de-couples" your rig from whatever floor you're on and allows you to hear just the sound of the rig. Check the link. In the review in this link, the reviewer is mainly talking about subwoofers in a Home Theatre setup, but you will get the idea as to how this thing works. They're are only about $50 bucks for the standard sized one and I highly recommend every bass player to get one. You will notice the difference. )-(

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...ma-4-2004.html

Alas, the whole point with AI down firing speaker systems IS to couple your amp with the floor. De-couple it (by, say, picking up off of the floor) and it loses all of it's depth and power. I've tried putting it on a chair--it sounded like I was playing through my laptop. I have found that putting cardboard or something less reflective like Flip's rubber mat under the AI speaker helps a little bit with the sound at the playing position when you are playing on hard wood or concrete and have bright reflective walls nearby. It dampens some of the first reflections but doesn't kill them. I've never gone out into the crowd to see how much of a difference it makes 20 or more feet away though. I should do Chris Fitzgerald's trick of getting a 50 foot cable and playing from the audience some time.

mark

[mozarwasagenius]

Originally Posted by dar512

I played a Mardi Gras gig last month in the church hall (lunchroom with stage). This is an awful room for acoustics. The floor is tile, the walls are concrete block. Everything bounces. Add in a talkative dinner crowd and things just get worse.

So of course the bass sounded very boomy and overloud. If I turned it down, I couldn't hear myself.

In a room like this, is there anything you can tweak that will help?

What difficult rooms have you played in and did you find anything that helped? Share your knowledge.

I usually carry a graphic eq pedal with me if I play into a PA. I find the key to situations like this are usually more mids and less bass. You're right, "gyms" as I like to call them are tough to get a good sound in.

[doktorfeelgood]

Originally Posted by calivox

Alas, the whole point with AI down firing speaker systems IS to couple your amp with the floor. De-couple it (by, say, picking up off of the floor) and it loses all of it's depth and power. I've tried putting it on a chair--it sounded like I was playing through my laptop. I have found that putting cardboard or something less reflective like Flip's rubber mat under the AI speaker helps a little bit with the sound at the playing position when you are playing on hard wood or concrete and have bright reflective walls nearby. It dampens some of the first reflections but doesn't kill them. I've never gone out into the crowd to see how much of a difference it makes 20 or more feet away though. I should do Chris Fitzgerald's trick of getting a 50 foot cable and playing from the audience some time.

mark

Who uses down firing speaker systems to play bass thru?
I've never seen or heard of anybody using that type of system.
I agree that down firing subwoofers for Home Theartre ARE designed to couple with the floor, but most bass reflex cabinets for playing bass thru are not designed with that principle in mind. If you have good bass cabs, you don't need to rely on coupling with any floor to have a good sound.
But as we're all aware, and have stated here, there are some rooms you'll never get a good sound in. I've found that some small amps will sound better off the floor than on it. I have a small Yorkville 50 watt practice amp that, in my practice room at least, sounds better off of the floor on a milk crate than down on the floor. I have a piece of 1/2 plywood that's covered with carpet that's bolted to the top of the milk crate for sound deadening and it works well. Can't explain why, nor do I care, it just sounds better off the floor so that's how I play thru it. )-(

[bolo]

Originally Posted by doktorfeelgood

Who uses down firing speaker systems to play bass thru?
I've never seen or heard of anybody using that type of system.

[ Edit - Never mind. This one's too easy. ]

[Mark Perna]

Originally Posted by doktorfeelgood

Who uses down firing speaker systems to play bass thru?
I've never seen or heard of anybody using that type of system.
(

Ok. I'll do it.

Acoustic Image (AI) is probably the biggest dedicated producer of upright bass amplifiers out there. They make a high fidelity speaker system that uses a downfiring woofer, a front firing mid and an optional front firing tweeter. Not everyone uses the AI speaker with an AI amp, some prefer front firing woofers but a lot of us, including me, do. The theory behind the downfiring speaker is it diffuses the low end a bit allowing for a less direct, acoustic bass kind of sound in place of the more direct, electric bass kind of sound. Not everyone agrees the theory holds in practice but enough do for AI to sell a whole bunch of speaker systems and combo amps. The important thing to remember with AI speakers is that all of the low end is reflected off of the floor. No floor to reflect off of and there is no low end.

I checked your profile and you don't seem to play upright bass so there is very little likelihood that you would have any contact with AI products. I've tried to use the AI speaker with slab but it kind of sucks for that. So for those of us using the AI system, decoupling with the floor is bad. Coupling with the floor is good.

Going back to my previous post for bad rooms now that you know what an AI speaker system is. On hard wood or concrete floors with bright, reflective walls nearby, the reflected sound of the woofer can be unpleasantly bright or edgy. I've found that putting something a little less reflective such as cardboard under the speaker but leaving the speaker coupled to the floor will help dampen some of the brightness without losing the low end and it sounds way better than trying to EQ it.

mark

[doktorfeelgood]

Originally Posted by calivox

Ok. I'll do it.

Acoustic Image (AI) is probably the biggest dedicated producer of upright bass amplifiers out there. They make a high fidelity speaker system that uses a downfiring woofer, a front firing mid and an optional front firing tweeter. Not everyone uses the AI speaker with an AI amp, some prefer front firing woofers but a lot of us, including me, do. The theory behind the downfiring speaker is it diffuses the low end a bit allowing for a less direct, acoustic bass kind of sound in place of the more direct, electric bass kind of sound. Not everyone agrees the theory holds in practice but enough do for AI to sell a whole bunch of speaker systems and combo amps. The important thing to remember with AI speakers is that all of the low end is reflected off of the floor. No floor to reflect off of and there is no low end.

I checked your profile and you don't seem to play upright bass so there is very little likelihood that you would have any contact with AI products. I've tried to use the AI speaker with slab but it kind of sucks for that. So for those of us using the AI system, decoupling with the floor is bad. Coupling with the floor is good.

Going back to my previous post for bad rooms now that you know what an AI speaker system is. On hard wood or concrete floors with bright, reflective walls nearby, the reflected sound of the woofer can be unpleasantly bright or edgy. I've found that putting something a little less reflective such as cardboard under the speaker but leaving the speaker coupled to the floor will help dampen some of the brightness without losing the low end and it sounds way better than trying to EQ it.

mark

Mark...Thanks for the tutorial. You are right in that I don't play acoustic bass but a couple of years ago I did check out the Acoustic Image combo amps to play electric thru. Too pricey for what I wanted it for and there weren't any dealers around here for me to play thru one anyway. If I was aware of them using a down firing woofer, I forgot about it.
I can see why it could be important to leave it on the floor.
If you would happen to know anybody that has one of those Gramma isolation platforms, you should give it a try. It might work for you. Being a carpeted platform that would continue to soak up some of the high end a lot better than cardboard and it might not alter the low end responce. Maybe even improve it. )-(

[bolo]

FWIW I did try the Contra on a Gramma once or twice. It definitely looked absurd because the Gramma is 23" by 15", and the Contra has a much smaller footprint. It did seem to provide a little more consistency in the sound from one type floor surface + room to the next, but it wasn't a huge transformation IMO. But like you said, YMMV.

[FrankM]

My current gig is the lounge on the top floor of a four story hotel. The local jazz club closed its doors last year (Philistines!) and the club owner decided to "restart" the jazz club in the lounge. It serves as the hotel restaurante at dinner. The room is long and narrow with a glass wall that runs the entire length of the lounge (stage right). The bar and enterance is on the left and the ceiling is very low. We get out about as far as the end of the bar and the sound just dies. There is one place to sit a table of more than six people and that is RIGHT in front of the band, not to mention lifting active mains over my head and carrying them through the dinner crowd.

The meeting room behind the bar is very popular for the local wedding receptions (not your typical "jazz" crowds, either) and coming up in the elevator I could hear the lilting tones of "Ice Ice Baby" while still on the third floor.

We get no outside advertising except in the room service paper the hotel puts in the room and a small ad in the local entertainment monthly magazine that no one reads but musicians. I talked to the manager and told him that ANY band is going to need a bigger footprint (and we don't even have a drummer yet and I'm still playing a Fender P), that table in the front has got to go and they need to put a set of (house) mains up about halfway back. And the owner is disappointed with the turnout and may shut down the entire attempt.

End of rant. Remember, you asked.

[larry]

I've had success getting my speaker away from me, but pointing back towards me. Like setting up on one side of the stage and having the amp fire accross the stage from the other side. It really does not affect the volume in the house that much if it's not firing straight out.

[bolo]

That's interesting. That would seem to help all the musicians on stage hear the bass better I would think. I've seen some players do this on large stages, but they had a large PA to deliver the sound to the audience.

I guess I thought with most speakers there was a difference between on-axis and off-axis sound. The better the dispersion, the lesser this effect I guess. I could be wrong, but I thought you typically sense less highs and mids off-axis, since they are more directional and travel out from the speaker in a tighter "beam."