Feedback with Realist

[wisemonkey]

I've had problems lately with my realist feeding back. I spoke to some other players who said they never hve that problem with a realist. I can control it by covering the f holes but I'm sure there must be another explanation. Any suggestions welcome.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by wisemonkey

I've had problems lately with my realist feeding back. I spoke to some other players who said they never hve that problem with a realist. I can control it by covering the f holes but I'm sure there must be another explanation. Any suggestions welcome.

I've never had a problem with the Realist feeding back unless I'm really close to the amp and can't turn the instrument "off axis" 90 degrees from the speaker. That said, if you are having to really crank the volume then the Realist won't work very well in those situations anyway. IMHO it's truly a low to moderate volume pickup. Once you get it above the 5 to 6 volume range, 7 at the max, it doesn't sound very good anyway.

You might try a vibramute to dampen the after length of the strings and a buffer preamp like F Decks little HPF pre amp. It's got a low cut and phase switch to help tame feedback. If that doesn't do the trick the Fishman Pro Platinum EQ has a Phase Switch, Notch and Lo Cut Filter's.

Taping the F holes isn't really a very good idea at all. You could potentially stress or crack the instrument. Without the F holes for the air "escape" it's going to try and find a path to vent itself through the seams or worse through the back or top.

Ric

[Cairobill]

I had a similar sounding problem with my realist on my carved bass. The sound was pretty bad, with microphonic honks and squeals and a nasty, middy tone.

I was running it through an Eden combo which sounded terrific with my jazz bass but awful with the realist.

I posted on talkbass and it was suggested that it could be an impedance problem. I changed my gear to a Mark Bass Little Mark II and a Berg 12 inch cab....the problem disappeared and it now sounds fantastic

Ergo ... it might be an impedance problem?

Cairo

[JoeyNaeger]

Originally Posted by Cairobill

I had a similar sounding problem with my realist on my carved bass. The sound was pretty bad, with microphonic honks and squeals and a nasty, middy tone.

I was running it through an Eden combo which sounded terrific with my jazz bass but awful with the realist.

I posted on talkbass and it was suggested that it could be an impedance problem. I changed my gear to a Mark Bass Little Mark II and a Berg 12 inch cab....the problem disappeared and it now sounds fantastic

Ergo ... it might be an impedance problem?

Cairo

The impedance of the markbass is still too low for piezo pickups. I suspect the better sound comes from using a better sounding head and cabinet.

[Cairobill]

A good point. The LMII and the Berg sound fantastic. Very transparent etc But the honky, microphonic, squealy nature of the realist that I had with the Eden has disappeared - which I understand was an impedance issue.

C

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by wisemonkey

I've had problems lately with my realist feeding back. I spoke to some other players who said they never hve that problem with a realist. I can control it by covering the f holes but I'm sure there must be another explanation. Any suggestions welcome.

The realist is one of the more feedback prone pickups out there when compared to all the other's available. That doesn't mean changing it is the solution.


Fill out your profile or tell us what equipment you are using. Bass amp speakers strings etc.

A "realist on a bass" is kind of generic.

Do a search with the search button in amps mic pickup with the keywork "feedback". You'll get a bunch more help.

Then ask more specific questions.

[wisemonkey]

Many thanks to all for the responses on this.
I have now filled in the gear section of my profile.
I have a 3/4 Czech bass circa 1960, and I'm running the realist into a euphonic audio i500 with the euphonic 2x10 cab

I just bought the fishman preamp, which is a great piece of kit and gives some more options for controlling the feedback, though it is still a problem.

[Uncletoad]

Some ideas I generally post when this comes up:

I have played ridiculously loud in small and large venues with huge rock bands using my Plywood Cleveland bass and a Full Circle pickup into an AI Focus 2RIII and Euphonic Audio VL208. It mananges to still sound like a string bass too.

Several Considerations;

1. The onstage bass volume should be low, feel the low end and presence of the bass through the PA.
2. Use the onstage system with mids and highs only as a personal monitor to stay in tune.
3. Dial in the front of house sound without any on stage sound whatsoever and then turn up your rig just enough to play in tune when everything else kicks in.
4. Try to get whatever personal monitors you use up off the floor near your ear and away from the body of the bass.
5. Stay well behind the main speakers and well away from the subs.
6. Keep the bass out of the floor wedges and stay as far away from any on stage speakers as you can.
7. Use the rubber stopper on the endpin and don't stick the pin directly into the floor.
8. Experiment with phase reversal on the preamp.
9. Experiment with high pass filters on the preamp.
10. Stay away from compressors.
11. Place a foam wedge or towel between the body of the bass and the tailpiece if you still have feedback.
12. Weave a strip of velcro through the afterlength of the strings between the bridge and tail piece.
13. When all else fails use parametric EQ to dial out the offending frequencies. A couple bands should be enough. If not you've got a source problem.


Fwiw, this problem usually comes up when someone has a realist pickup and tries to play on the louder side of things.

Like in this case

I'm coming to the conclusion that the realist is a problem in higher volume applications.

I can't use it.

If the fishman proplatinum is used properly and can't tame the beast then you've got source problems. The rest of the gear is excellent and should deliver high volumes of reasonably uncolored sound.

Follow the other suggestions above but I'd also consider another pickup at this point.

[ToneRanger]

Originally Posted by Cairobill

I was running it through an Eden combo which sounded terrific with my jazz bass but awful with the realist.
I posted on talkbass and it was suggested that it could be an impedance problem. I changed my gear to a Mark Bass Little Mark II and a Berg 12 inch cab....the problem disappeared and it now sounds fantastic
Ergo ... it might be an impedance problem?

The Edens have high enough impedance for piezos - about 1 Meg Ohm. MarkBass input impedance is lower, but probably still OK. I think the change was due to other variables.
FWIW, my Eden WT330 and 112XLT are great for upright. My 210XST is not as good for upright, but excellent for BG.

If using a piezo without a preamp, make sure you use a good quality cable and keep it as short as possible. If the piezo is going through any sort of electronics, then subsequent cable and amp impedance become irrelevant.

[wisemonkey]

Phil you're a legend thanks for all the tips
Im going to try a revolution p'up with the fishman. Will also get my bridge checked out to see if there are any issues with it.
I have some gigs coming up with a fairly loud band - will report how I get on

[TimmyP]

Great post from Uncletoad.

The problem with a high pass filter (low cut) is that it takes away a lot of usable low frequency information along with the feedback. You should use one or two notch filters if at all possible - use a high pass only as a last resort. When I worked with a guy using a K&K Bassmax through a Radial Pro48, I loved the bottom end. When I worked with a guy using a Realist (through ?), I thought it sounded more like a doghouse, but the bottom end sucked. After the show I found out that he was high passing the signal "cause I thought you might have problems". It never occured to me to ask, as I never thought anyone would do anything so silly.

[Gearhead43]

You won't lose any audible "bottom end" if you use a high-pass filter properly. I would not use one (or anything else if possible) if it was being controlled by the sound man.

The sweepable high-pass on the Fishman Pro Platinum tells you how to use it in the manual. Above about 12-1 o'clock on the dial it is cutting frequencies too low for us to really hear anyway, but those frequencies can cause "low end rumble" feedback and tax your poweramp and speakers. The high-pass can also tighten up the low end, makes it "punchy" and not boomy.

I believe that a good sweepable high-pass such as the one on Fdeck's unit, and the P. Platinum (along with it's other nice features) are indispensable for amplifying an upright bass at loud volumes.

[TimmyP]

Originally Posted by Gearhead43

You won't lose any audible "bottom end" if you use a high-pass filter properly. I would not use one (or anything else if possible) if it was being controlled by the sound man.

The sweepable high-pass on the Fishman Pro Platinum tells you how to use it in the manual. Above about 12-1 o'clock on the dial it is cutting frequencies too low for us to really hear anyway, but those frequencies can cause "low end rumble" feedback and tax your poweramp and speakers. The high-pass can also tighten up the low end, makes it "punchy" and not boomy.

I believe that a good sweepable high-pass such as the one on Fdeck's unit, and the P. Platinum (along with it's other nice features) are indispensable for amplifying an upright bass at loud volumes.

You have a point. So long as the high pass is not over 40, I doubt I'd have anything to complain about. Above that however.....

All the problems I've encountered have been high enough that if they had been solved by a high pass, there'd have been no bottom in the bass. But then when I'm driving the PA the subs don't have the usual 80Hz boom.

[bolo]

Originally Posted by TimmyP

So long as the high pass is not over 40, I doubt I'd have anything to complain about. Above that however.....

FWIW, my experiences and preferences are a little different. I set the freq rolloff point on my Focus at 70 Hz. I know some other well known TBers who do the same.

Without it, the low register as sensed by the pickup on my bass is overemphasized. Maybe because of the pickup I use, or the nature of piezos, or the fact that it's on the E string side of the bridge. Whatever. With my bass, the string to string balance amplified matches the unamplified balance more closely w/ the HPF around 70 Hz. And I can still generate plenty of bottom.

Might be worth mentioning that it's a rolloff w/ a slope too, not a hard cut off. I think it's -12 dB/octave for the Focus. Not sure about the rolloff rate for my HPF-Pre.

[TimmyP]

Originally Posted by bolo

FWIW, my experiences and preferences are a little different. I set the freq rolloff point on my Focus at 70 Hz. I know some other well known TBers who do the same.

Without it, the low register as sensed by the pickup on my bass is overemphasized. Maybe because of the pickup I use, or the nature of piezos, or the fact that it's on the E string side of the bridge. Whatever. With my bass, the string to string balance amplified matches the unamplified balance more closely w/ the HPF around 70 Hz. And I can still generate plenty of bottom.

Might be worth mentioning that it's a rolloff w/ a slope too, not a hard cut off. I think it's -12 dB/octave for the Focus. Not sure about the rolloff rate for my HPF-Pre.

That rolloff is very close to what's on many mixers (if the channels have a high pass). (There's no such thing as a cuttoff - well maybe if you approach 48dB/octave.) I've never had a situation where using it was desirable on an acoustic bass, electric bass, bass drum, or kick drum. I firmly believe - based on my experience - that if one is solving a problem with a high pass filter that high, it's a problem that should be solved with a parametric filter. If one thinks he has plenty of bottom end with such a filter engaged, it is because he has yet to actually hear real bottom end - just boom. (I've certainly never heard bottom end from any bass cabinet, although the AcmeBass cabs come very close. I don't hear it from most PA subs either.)

[Gearhead43]

TimmyP is a sound guy.

That explains why I don't have a clue what he is talking about.

Run, Tim! Run!!

We are talking in upright bass terms here, Tim.

[TimmyP]

Originally Posted by Gearhead43

TimmyP is a sound guy.

That explains why I don't have a clue what he is talking about.

Run, Tim! Run!!

We are talking in upright bass terms here, Tim.

As soon as you plug it into an amp or a PA, you have to start talkin' 'bout audio gear. If you want the best amplified tone from your upright, you need to know a lot more about gear than any electric bassist does, because getting a good amplified doghouse tone is a lot harder than getting a good electric tone. (You need to know more than a lot of soundmen know as well.)

[Uncletoad]

I generally have a high pass filter on all the time starting at 30hz. Tightens up the low end without loosing it altogether. Most of the junk down there is an artifact of the pickup and not a tone in the bass. It's also responsible for the lions share of untamable racket when a DB top gets synched up with a big set of subwoofers and starts to ratchet up into the howling zone.

Fwiw, until you get to a fairly high spot on the soundman foodchain the level of stupidity surrounding amplifying a DB is astounding.

[bolo]

Originally Posted by TimmyP

That rolloff is very close to what's on many mixers (if the channels have a high pass). (There's no such thing as a cuttoff - well maybe if you approach 48dB/octave.) I've never had a situation where using it was desirable on an acoustic bass, electric bass, bass drum, or kick drum. I firmly believe - based on my experience - that if one is solving a problem with a high pass filter that high, it's a problem that should be solved with a parametric filter. If one thinks he has plenty of bottom end with such a filter engaged, it is because he has yet to actually hear real bottom end - just boom. (I've certainly never heard bottom end from any bass cabinet, although the AcmeBass cabs come very close. I don't hear it from most PA subs either.)

Maybe you're right chief. It seems a little odd though that adjustable HPFs are so popular then with people who frequent this forum.

I think I may have to opt for willful ignorance on this one, and just use my ears.

BOOM goes the low F. I love it.

[fred pratt]

I should start out by saying that I'm a part-timer and a recovering electric bassist. I wish I didn't have to think too much about technical stuff. I'd love to be able to just plug a pickup into an amp and not have to think too much about amplification. For a few years that's what I've been doing. My Realist has gone into my Contra and it has sounded great in the relatively small restaurant settings where I've mostly played. In bigger rooms where I'm not near a wall, the Contra is difficult to hear from further away.

I recently got a Micro 300 and Whizzy 10. Standing right in front of it, which I must do in the restaurant setting, it feeds back slightly when the Contra doesn't, no doubt because the woofer is pointing forward in the general direction of the bass, rather than down like the Contra's. Nonetheless, I believe I now prefer the EA to the Contra, both for it's portability and for it's satisfying sound up close.

Last night I played a gig on a resonant wooden stage with a PA system. It was real crowded up there, so I couldn't move, and there wasn't the time or opportunity to work with the sound guy. The feedback situation was close to unbearable. I got feedback from the PA even though the stage monitor closest to me was at head-level and even when I turned the gain all the way down on the house amp. (I don't understand how the house still got a signal from the line out on the amp when the gain was turned all the way down.) Things got better when I took off my outer shirt and stuffed it between the top and the tailpiece, but it was still a real struggle.

I read what Uncle Toad said about avoiding feedback and I've read some other stuff. I usually can't reposition myself in tight settings, and I'd like not to have to dampen the vibration of the bass itself. Could the answer be to get Full Circle, on the theory that the bridge where it's mounted vibrates less than the top, where the Realist is mounted, and so the pickup should be less prone to feedback?