Full Circle - why does it sound so good?

[Adrian Cho]

Someone asked in another thread about the fact that I have a Full Circle on my new bass although I was using a Vektor with my previous bass. I thought I'd answer that here instead of in the bass section but I also have a question too.

To report my situation, yes I have changed at least for now to a Full Circle. I still think the Vektor is the best sounding pickup out there. If you want a single solution, the Vektor rules. I didn't get one with my new bass for two reasons. One is timing. I left it too late to order a Vektor from Toby. Arnold had the bass and I had gigs lined up and I needed something installed. It was just easy to get a Full Circle.

Also, my amplification strategy has changed somewhat nowadays. Previously I always strove to recreate my exact sound - gut strings and all. That was a noble ideal but not necessarily the best strategy.

Although things are never black and white, nowadays I divide my playing situations into two cases. When I play "concert" gigs I care a lot about the sound. For one thing, it's sometimes an essential element of the music because I'm playing Ellington or something like that. I try to play with no or minimal amplification if possible because I know that is the true sound. If necessary, I use a mic. These are situations where I have a lot of control over the sound environment. There is a soundcheck where we can position the band. More importantly, the room is quiet as the audience is there to listen.

On the other hand there are everyday working gigs. There is no soundcheck. The ambient noise in the room is sometimes excessive because there are hundreds of people talking and clinking glasses, etc. No one really cares much about the exact tone of the bass. The most important thing is being heard. Something with more of an edge is needed to just cut through the wall of sound.

Of course not every thing is so black and white. Often on working gigs I do have some time to play with the sound a bit. I've also just ordered an AKC C 419 mic and plan to mount that on the bass and try mixing it on working gigs.

Which brings me to my question. The Full Circle doesn't sound as good as a Vektor but I've always been impressed by it, especially for the money. It's always sounded pretty damn good on the basses I've heard it on including mine. It is a piezo. It sounds better than any piezo I've heard. Why does it sound so good?

[Bob Branstetter]

I think you always need to keep in mind that the Fishman FC (or any other pickup for that matter) does not sound great on all basses. On my two main basses, the FC sounds great (when mixed with my AMT mic) on #1, but just fair on the #2 bass. I originally bought the FC for my #2 bass, but I took it off after a few days and was going to sell it until I tried it on my #1 bass a few months later. A world of difference. On my #2 bass, the best pickup for it is a Realist, but the Realist sound terrible on #1 bass. Other than being different basses, everything else is equal.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I have two New Standard LaScalas - a hybrid, and a ply. On the hybrid, the FC sounds great. On the ply it only sounds "good", as it's awfully bright compared to the amplified sound of the other bass. Mixed with a decent mic, they both sound really good - I just notice that I have to set the EQ for the FC very differently for the two basses, even though both are very similar basses with the same setup and strings.

[flatback]

yea I too have gone thru this whole cycle and while the Vektor sounds the most natural and "mic like" I play a lot in a lot of different places and I keep coming back to the FC. It Just cuts but with a nice thick attack (I have mine with the body sound emphasized) also how you have it dialed in (literally) makes a big difference. And nothing makes a bigger difference then having an Avalon U5 in front of the amp. With the U5 a pick up like the Aptflex (very brite) can sound great where it might not be able to get a sound without.
But what about the FC sounds so good (especially on dark basses)? Dunno, but it does.
Part of it for me is that the sound that hits my ears when the band is playing (often on less then a roomy stage) is phat enough to be inspiring to play. With other PU's the sound can be good out in the hall but standing next to it can be less then ideal.
I have really been getting into the blending with the FC it seems to work better then any other PU I've tried at sharing the Signal and overlapping at the right aural points.
One other thing with small tight hifi cabs (I use 2 LDS 1x8's) the sound is so controlled that it remains natural but does not get lost in the mix.
I'm still trying to get both the Vektor and FC on the same bridge tho cause for duo and quiet trio stuff, the Vektor has a sound I really dig.

[Adrian Cho]

Bob can you describe your #1 and #2 basses?

Chris, I think it's hard when amplifying any bass that's bright as I expect a ply to be. No doubt the FC does have a brightness and an edge to it (which is why I'm using it) and that only exacerbates the brightness. But of course you hit the nail on the head - mixing it with a mix to take the edge of the brightness of the piezo, helps a lot.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

Bob can you describe your #1 and #2 basses?

My #1 bass is a turn of the century 3/4 Mittenwald carved round back. Bass #2 is a 1938 Albert Rodier 7/8 carved roundback. Both are strung with medium gauge Helicore Hybrids.

[B String]

One other factor in this is that the Full Circle sounds
different depending on if the element is instaled in the
bridge facing the strings or the body. Mine is facing
the body, giving it a sound in between a Realist and
an Underwood. Less bite than an Underwood, less boom
than a Realist.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by B String

One other factor in this is that the Full Circle sounds different depending on if the element is instaled in the bridge facing the strings or the body. Mine is facing the body, giving it a sound in between a Realist and an Underwood. Less bite than an Underwood, less boom than a Realist.

I actually made another bridge for my #2 bass so that I could try the FC facing the other way for comparison. While there was a difference, I did not find the difference to be anywhere near as hugh as some have claimed it to be. However, the FC did not sound good on this bass regardless of threads up or theads down. On my #1 bass, I just replaced the adjusters and it sounded good (for a piezo). I doubt if I would like a steady diet of FC alone, but it does blend well with the AMT S25B.

[Bob Branstetter]

While I am happy that you have found something that works well on your Juzek, I fail to see how this relates to the current discusstion of the Full Circle pickup.

[Randy Ward]

I am a new convert to the Full Circle and only have had it on
my new Cleveland with a C ext. since I got it 3 weeks ago.
But I agree that the FC sounds good on a wide variety of basses.

My personal theory as to why it
sounds good is that;
unlike other piezos it generally does
not interfere with the bridges 'sound production',
but still gets it's 'sound data' from that location,
as do most piezos. It isn't clamped to it to hinder vibration and it isn't crammed in the wing. I've heard from several sources that having the wings open is important for a good sound.

It has been argued that the height
adjustment wheels interfere with the bridges 'sound' but
it has been so long since I heard a bass for jazz without
them that whatever they change in sound is just something I expect. Just my unproven theory.

[Adrian Cho]

Thanks univac. That's exactly the kind of comment I was looking for. For certain all of the other bridge mounted pickups I have heard including those under the foot, in the wing, and stuck on the bridge, sound pretty terrible to me. That includes those that are not piezos too such as the Stat-B and the various electret film thingos.

The Full Circle is not so good that I would record from it. I like having it blended with a healthy dose of something else (eventually a mic but for now just a lot of acoustic sound from the instrument) but it's the best of the bridge-mounted pickups I've heard. And for a piezo I think it's amazing and it shows that perhaps the location has a lot to do with it. The price is great and having the ability to slightly EQ the sound with by turning the wheel, is very convenient.

[fish slapper]

I can only echo Univac's thoery.

My own experience is: I went from BassMax to Rev SoloII to FC. So I'm guessing my own perception of improvement in tone is due to better consistant contact with the bridge structure (both wing pup's tended to "wander" and I was putting them back in place). That and maybe half way down the foot is a better location than on the wing of the bridge.

I've never had a bridge without adjusters but to be honest I've never used the adjusters either. A buddy has the same model Shen as I do with a no-adjuster bridge and I haven't been able to hear any difference in tone. Other than he's a bit more of a man than me and has his action set a bit higher.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

That's exactly the kind of comment I was looking for. For certain all of the other bridge mounted pickups I have heard including those under the foot, in the wing, and stuck on the bridge, sound pretty terrible to me. That includes those that are not piezos too such as the Stat-B and the various electret film thingos.

I think you are looking in the wrong place for the answer to your initial question. The question should be why does the FC sound so good on YOUR bass. Univac Jr suggest some possibilites, but if those posibilities were the answer, then why do other pickups such as the Realist, Schertler, Vector, Underwood, RS, and others sound best on some instruments? I've made it a practice in recent years to keep pickups on all of the basses I have for sale. Of the five I currently have for sale, I ended up using 3 different pickup because on each instrument there was a pickup that sounded best for that instrument. It would certainly be cheaper for me if that were not the case, but there is simply no such thing as one pickup that sounds good on ALL instrument. You should be happy that you found one that works well for you on your bass. There are some folks here who will be continuously hunting that elusive best pickup for their bass as long as they live.

[jsbarber]

Adrian - I'm just curious, now that you've had a chance to use the FC for a month or so, what are your thoughts regarding amplification strategy and these two pickups? (FC & Vektor)
Do you feel that cut and presence are more important than pure amplification? (Hope my paraphrasing doesn't misrepresent your discussion, but that is how I understand it.)

Jim

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

To report my situation, yes I have changed at least for now to a Full Circle. I still think the Vektor is the best sounding pickup out there. If you want a single solution, the Vektor rules. ...

Also, my amplification strategy has changed somewhat nowadays. Previously I always strove to recreate my exact sound - gut strings and all. That was a noble ideal but not necessarily the best strategy. ...

On the other hand there are everyday working gigs. There is no soundcheck. The ambient noise in the room is sometimes excessive because there are hundreds of people talking and clinking glasses, etc. No one really cares much about the exact tone of the bass. The most important thing is being heard. Something with more of an edge is needed to just cut through the wall of sound.

Of course not every thing is so black and white. Often on working gigs I do have some time to play with the sound a bit. I've also just ordered an AKC C 419 mic and plan to mount that on the bass and try mixing it on working gigs.

Which brings me to my question. The Full Circle doesn't sound as good as a Vektor but I've always been impressed by it, especially for the money. It's always sounded pretty damn good on the basses I've heard it on including mine. It is a piezo. It sounds better than any piezo I've heard. Why does it sound so good?

[carved czech]

Univac Jr suggest some possibilites, but if those posibilities were the answer, then why do other pickups such as the Realist, Schertler, Vector, Underwood, RS, and others sound best on some instruments? I've made it a practice in recent years to keep pickups on all of the basses I have for sale. Of the five I currently have for sale, I ended up using 3 different pickup because on each instrument there was a pickup that sounded best for that instrument. It would certainly be cheaper for me if that were not the case, but there is simply no such thing as one pickup that sounds good on ALL instrument. You should be happy that you found one that works well for you on your bass. There are some folks here who will be continuously hunting that elusive best pickup for their bass as long as they live.[/quote]
+1
In time I changed (buy and sell) 9 of my basses, hunting for the best instrument , till I have found my current bass, czech carved roundback bass. I was using Underwood pickup only for all my basses ( I never liked other pickup,though had tried many others) . Now, when I am happy with the acoustic sound of my bass, also Underwood gets me the best sound I ever had.Maybe the bass has met its pickup?

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

. Of the five I currently have for sale, I ended up using 3 different pickups because on each instrument there was a pickup that sounded best for that instrument. You should be happy that you found one that works well for you on your bass. There are some folks here who will be continuously hunting that elusive best pickup for their bass as long as they live.

I think that Bob has the answer here. I experimented with various pickups over the years on the same bass. The Underwood sounded the best until the Realist came along. I tried a Revolution Solo and that didn't work either. It's kind of a crap shoot. Over the years my luthier and I tried out various pickups on the basses we both owned. The Realist didn't sound good at all on his basses.

[quote=carved czech]Of the five I currently have for sale, I ended up using 3 different pickup because on each instrument there was a pickup that sounded best for that instrument. It would certainly be cheaper for me if that were not the case, but there is simply no such thing as one pickup that sounds good on ALL instrument.[/OUOTE]

Carved czech's information just brings Bobs comments home in a very elloquent manner. It's not a one size fits all proposition. There are definitely pickups that work better across
a large group of basses like the Full Circle, but even the Full Circle won't work on any bass. IMHO once you get a good sound with a particular pickup you should live with it for several months to
see how it works in a variety of playing situations and how dependable it is.

Ric

[Adrian Cho]

Originally Posted by jsbarber

Adrian - I'm just curious, now that you've had a chance to use the FC for a month or so, what are your thoughts regarding amplification strategy and these two pickups? (FC & Vektor)
Do you feel that cut and presence are more important than pure amplification? (Hope my paraphrasing doesn't misrepresent your discussion, but that is how I understand it.)

Jim

I am very happy with the FC on my bass. It's not the only signal I would want going into a PA or into a studio board but for giving a bit more presence, definition and assistance on the low end to supplement a nice sounding and strong acoustic signal, it works well. The difference between it and the Vektor is that it does allow me to cut through in situations when the Vektor does not because my acoustic sound is just not conducive to some of the situations I play in. Specifically, gut sounds great in acoustic situations but when you're playing in a really high volume ensemble or in a room where there is a tonne of ambient noise, gut is not all that great for getting through.

The Vektor reproduction is no doubt more accurate but for my acoustic sound, it's actually not what I want for everyday gigs. For concert gigs, I will rely more on a mic or some blend of a mic with the FC but as I've said, those are situations where there is no ambient noise in the room and we can do a soundcheck, etc. Very, very different to everyday gigs.

Some recent examples where I was happy to have a pickup that helped me get through better:

Last Friday night I played in a trio in a typical cocktail thing in a foyer where at any one time there perhaps 30 or 40 people in the immediate vicinity and the acoustics of the room really soaked up a lot of sound.

On Saturday during the day I played in a quartet for two sessions of a graduation ceremony in a huge gymnasium with probably 700 - 800 people in the room. They had covered the floor of the gym with some material to prevent scuffing of the floor but which also did a good job of absorbing sound. We weren't trying to be heard at all ends of the gym but at most times we were surrounded on all four sides by hundreds of people who were of course talking.

On Saturday night I played a ridiculous gig where I was with a violinist and pianist in a medium sized room with people moving in and out of the room but there were always about 200 people in there at any one time. The ridiculous part is that we had to compete with a seven piece jump swing band with three horns that was only about 100 feet away in another room and the door between the two areas was not closed. Made it very challenging just to get through tunes in our tempo and pass of to one another without getting thrown off by the other band. If jar240 sees this post he will laugh as he was playing bass with the jump swing band with his UL110 and VL208 together and I'm in the next room with just my UL110 and trying to be heard but not wanting to overpower my bandmates (violinist had no sound reinforcement). BTW the violinist had asked the client to provide for amplification for him that gig but they refused although they later apparently admitted they should have.

I think if I was playing on steel (and having just tried the Dominants they really have such a different sound) the Vektor might be better but the FC works well for my current setup.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

The Vektor reproduction is no doubt more accurate but for my acoustic sound, it's actually not what I want for everyday gigs. For concert gigs, I will rely more on a mic or some blend of a mic with the FC but as I've said, those are situations where there is no ambient noise in the room and we can do a soundcheck, etc. Very, very different to everyday gigs.

From looking at you're schedule many of the engagements that you play
would of necessity require a Full Circle or something similar. I would be interested to know if you have used the Vektor and the Full Circle in combination and what you're impressions of that combination are.

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

I think if I was playing on steel (and having just tried the Dominants they really have such a different sound) the Vektor might be better but the FC works well for my current setup.

Adrian,
I would commend you for not compromising you're personal sound. It takes a very high degree of integrity to stick with gut strings and not compromise the warmer and more natural sound IMHO I feel they produce. Personally, I've been trying to come ups with a combination of strings that
get a little better bowed sound. It's a real adventure isn't it?

Ric

[Adrian Cho]

Originally Posted by Ric Vice

From looking at you're schedule many of the engagements that you play
would of necessity require a Full Circle or something similar. I would be interested to know if you have used the Vektor and the Full Circle in combination and what you're impressions of that combination are.

Unfortunately I've not used the Full Circle and Vektor in combination as they were on different bridges.

Originally Posted by Ric Vice

I would commend you for not compromising you're personal sound. It takes a very high degree of integrity to stick with gut strings and not compromise the warmer and more natural sound IMHO I feel they produce. Personally, I've been trying to come ups with a combination of strings that
get a little better bowed sound. It's a real adventure isn't it?

In the past I used a very purist approach to amplification in combination with gut strings. The combination was not always good for the kinds of gigs I've described above. At times I would bemoan the gut strings but really the best solution is to change the approach to amplification which as it turns out is also generally using less expensive gear (no complaints there). Remember too that these are situations in which no one particularly cares about the exact tone of the bass. Neither my bandmates nor the audience.

If I was to change my acoustic sound, I would be most unhappy in other situations including those where I don't amplify at all. For example this Saturday I'm playing a jazz trio at a private house party with 24 guests. I won't even use an amp. I'm also playing with a Sephardic group where we play folk music with bass, voice, tof, flute, classical guitar. I would never use an amp with that group although I might possible mic into the PA for a larger concert setting. These are the kinds of situations in which the tone of the bass matters more.