influence of the amplification on the acoustic bass

[just_me]

hello everyone,
for the jazz history class, I have a work to do. Mine could be entilted: «What influence has had the amplification on the acoustic bass over the years?». Instead of reading in the books (and I guess there aren't that many books on the topic) I thought it would be much more interessting to ask reall people. One part would be more "anonymous" people, and the second part people like big names (ron carter, dave holland). I have thought about some questions which could help, but what I am really asking here is this: for those who have played for long enough to observe a significant change, what influence the amplification (and its improvement) has had on the acousitc bass, and its function/ importance in the music (on arrangement, composition, improvisation). here are the questions:
- Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)
- What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)
- Is it the same live and in studio ?
- Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?
- Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings)
- How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else)
- How the amplification system has changed over the years, how much better is it now? Is it something that has changed the way you approach the instrument (the fact that there’s an amplification and that it has become better with time)
- How much of that has influenced the way you think about the music ? (about the composition, arrangement, function of the bass)

also; since I want to ask some famous guy, but can not find all the contacts info, maybe someone could help me to find the contacts. here are the people I thought would be interesting to ask:

Dave Holland, John Patitucci, Christian Mcbride, Ron Carter, Reggie Workman, Scott Colley, Avishai Coehn, Drew Gress, François Moutin, Eddie Gomez, Anders Jormin, Larry Grenadier, Dan Berglund, Gary Peacock, Charlie Haden, Stanley Clarke, George Mraz, Buster Williams.

I am soooo sorry for such a long post, but any help would be greatly appriciated!
thanks a lot (and I'll post that as well in the "bassist" section for the contact infos.)
thanks a million time
yannick

[liam_g]

If you can find it, there was a cool video years ago with Ray Brown, Edgar Meyer, and Victor Wooten together. There was a section where Victor and Edgar were talking about how much stronger Ray's hands were, and how Edgar relied a lot more on low action and amplification, whereas Ray's tone came from his hands and a higher action. Something like that ... it's been 10 or 15 years since I saw it. Good discussion on the vid though, from pretty good examples of "old school" and "new school."

Cheers

[just_me]

cool, do you think you have any references for that video?
that's really what it's about: old school / new school. thanks!

[liam_g]

It was, I think, aired on the PBS show "Lonesome Pine Special". I don't know if it's available, but maybe you can track it down. I used to have it on vhs, recorded from the tv broadcast, but lost it in a move years ago.

[liam_g]

Just did some googling ... lots of clips from that show on YouTube. Maybe one of them has the conversation I'm thinking of ... or you could contact the people who have posted the videos and see if someone has the whole thing recorded and might be willing to help you out??

Good luck. It's a cool project you're doing. I wouldn't mind reading it when you're done, if you're willing to let someone else see it.

All the best!

[Ric Vice]

Interesting subject for a paper. Chuck Israels had a lot to say about this topic. http://www.chuckisraels.com/articledepartment.htm. You should download this article. I would add that John Clayton swore that he would never allow the engineers to use a amp to record live from after he recorded the live album with Monte Alexander on BASF.
Within the last 20 years there has been a traditionalist movement within the larger bass community to use gut strings and microphones to get a "more natural sound" some subscribe to this other's don't.
Some of the finest live jazz recordings done on Blue Note, Columbia and Riverside with the likes of Paul Chambers, Sam Jones, and Oscar Pettiford were done without an amplifier right into a mic.
IMHO I use a pickup and amplifier in most situations because I can get a pleasing tone and match the volume of today's 15 ply drum kits.

Ric

[Michael Glynn]

Originally Posted by Ric Vice

Chuck Israels had a lot to say about this topic.

Funny, I was just going to recommend contacting Chuck Israels about this topic. I had a great conversation with him about the whole amplification thing after he performed a show once. This was at a jazz club that always mics every single musician (except maybe the drums), but Chuck insisted that everything be acoustic. He just asked the audience to keep quiet so that everybody could hear. It sounded great. Of course, for those of us that are playing in noisy bars instead of fancy jazz clubs, this is not always an option.

As for myself, I often (usually, to be honest) use an amp. I use a mix of a mic and a pickup. I have given up on trying to get the "my bass only louder" thing, as it rarely seems to work. I instead try to get a consistent, clear sound that doesn't require me to change the way I play the bass. (For example, if my pickup/amp combination increases the sustain of the notes compared to when I play acoustically, that makes me change the way I pluck the strings to compensate. To me replicating the feel of the note is more important than perfectly replicating the sound, does this make sense?)

Also, I don't take amplification into account much, if at all, when deciding how to setup my bass (action, strings, etc.). I try to get the best acoustic sound possible and work the amplification around that.

Finally, in the studio I try to never use a signal from the pickup. In fact I often take the pickup off before I go in to the studio (this drives engineers crazy). The micing is usually done differently from live performance as well. When performing live I have the mic extremely close to the bass to maximize gain and minimize bleed. In the studio, I often try to have the mic further away.

[David Moss]

You may find this useful:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remot...till-pita.html

It's a discussion on a recording engineers forum on how to record double bass. There are some top guys involved who have recorded many really big name bassists. They range over many topics, including the old school / new school thing - basically saying that everything was better in the good old days when bassists were real men, and it's all Scott LeFaro and Ron Carter's fault. Fascinating reading!

[gnergaard]

Great link, David. Thanks!

[just_me]

yeah it's a really cool link, thanks a lot!
for those of you who wants to read my work when it's done: I live in switzerland, french speaking part, so the work will be in french. I thought I could translate it if some people want to read it, but the deadline for it is next june; and I'm sure it'll take some time to get answers from ron carter dave holland and the likes. as for that, I still haven't found the contact infos; most of what I've found is the management adress. I'm really not sure they'll even get my letter if I send it there, so once again, if any of you have taken a lesson with one of the players on the list, or somebody else that might want to answer those question (like the chuck israels - very cool idea here) thanks to give me their email adress (or just adress). here's the list:
dave holland, john patitucci, christian mcbride, ron carter, reggie workman, scott colley, avishai cohen, drew gress, françois moutin, eddie gomez, anders jormin, larry grenadier, dan berglund, gary peacock, charlie , staley clarke, george mraz, buster williams, chuck israels, dennis irwin.
for the people who answered, thanks a lot. one more question: do you think that the fact you can be heard better gives you a different place in the music ? (say that people would give you more soli, or start to complains about the intonation cause suddenly they here something.... or whatever, good or bad welcome) thanks a lot!!!
yannick

[fingers]

Originally Posted by just_me

- Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)

Yes. I think the way bands balance their sound has really changed. I unfortunately 'blame' drummers for part of this. It is almost impossible to play with a loud drummer without an amp. We take a bit of a "well if they can't quiet down then don't play with them" approach around here but then the reality of working sets in. Having a no nonsense sound and attitude keeps you working. Some guys, like ED, get it to work. I wish I could. Truthfully I only go ampless if there is no drummer on the gig. Sometimes the vibe of the band depends on the drummer being able to let loose a bit. Nature of the beast I guess.

I went to an interesting clinic with Wynton a few years back. He was critiquing a college band. The first thing he said was "Some nice playing. Now the bass player has got to lose that amp and you need to work on balancing you sound acoustically". Always stuck with me. Love him or not, Wynton's band has a great sound.

I do think amplification has changed some bass players approach to the instrument. I don't know if I buy all the stuff on that recording engineers forum. That said I spend lots of time on my own acoustic sound. I also spend lots of time with my students on the same issue. I've always believed the DB is an acoustic instrument and the amp is support. The funny thing is that if you are getting a good, strong sound out of the bass you can get a pretty workable sound with most amp/pickup combos.

Originally Posted by just_me

- What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)

Realist --> GK MB150S. Sometimes a Fishman Platinum Pro if it is a strange room acoustically. Mic only to pa (if there is one).

Originally Posted by just_me

- Is it the same live and in studio ?

MIC ONLY IN THE STUDIO. Oh, was I yelling. Sorry.

Originally Posted by just_me

- Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?

If an amp is involved... part of my sound. I have never heard a 'bass only louder' tone out of an amp. The only times I've heard it is mic into a high end pa with a sound guy who knows what he is doing.

Originally Posted by just_me

- Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings)

No.

Originally Posted by just_me

- How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else)

I don't use an amp when I practice and I try to forget it is there on stage.

[drurb]

What I have always loved about the DB is its acoustic sound. For me, amplification is a necessary evil. Others here have commented on why it becomes necessary. My goal, rarely achieved, is for the acoustic sound but bigger. Some players, even fantastic players, have made amplification very much a part of their sound and changed the setup of the bass along with it. Those are not the players to whom I am drawn.

Originally Posted by just_me

- Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)

Yes, out of necessity, but I try for minimal reinforcement of the acoustic sound.

Originally Posted by just_me

- What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)

Rev. Solo II, EA iamp200, Wizzy 12.

Originally Posted by just_me

- Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?

I try for the latter.

Originally Posted by just_me

- Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings)

Absolutely not.

Originally Posted by just_me

- How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else)

Not at all. Technique and sound are based entirely on playing without an amp.

Originally Posted by just_me

- How the amplification system has changed over the years, how much better is it now? Is it something that has changed the way you approach the instrument (the fact that there’s an amplification and that it has become better with time)

Wow, one could write a book here. Amps are now smaller, lighter, more powerful, and quieter with better tone-shaping circuitry. Speaker cabinets have improved as a result of computer aided design and applications of optimization equations (e.g., Thiele-Small alignments). None of this has changed how I approach the instrument.

Originally Posted by just_me

- How much of that has influenced the way you think about the music ? (about the composition, arrangement, function of the bass)

Not really at all.

[David Moss]

Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)

Yes, because I have to. I'm a hobby level jazz player, and I play with drummers at the same level as myself - they rarely master the art of playing quietly, because that's a pretty sophisticated thing for a drummer. The sax players I play with are pretty loud too.

What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)

So far it's been Realist and Balsereit piezo pick-ups through an AI amp and a Rich Raezer speaker. I've experimented with mikes and I intend to persevere, I think a mike through the band PA with my own pickup/amp just as a quiet stage monitor is the way to go. But it's a pain in the A because you have to watch for feedback, the mike volume control is out of your reach, and you have cables everywhere.

Is it the same live and in studio ?

I've only had two experiences of being recorded in a studio, but that was enough to convince me: absolutely not the same. Live is always a compromise with the sounds around you and with feedback, forcing you to choose between piezo for an easy life or mike for a better sound but a lot of hassles, while in the studio you can just play acoustic and let the experts mike you, in a cabin if necessary.

Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?

Definitely the latter. I love the natural sound of my bass and hate the sound coming out of my amp when I have to turn up loud.

Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings)

In a negative sense, yes it does: I wouldn't especially choose a quiet bass with low action because I'll be playing amplified, but if that happens to be the one I like, I'll take it without thinking about it, the acoustic volume is just not an issue. If I'd lived in the old days, I would presumably go out of my way to get the loudest bass and set up possible, making compromises with other criteria.

How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else)

I like the strongly percussive sound I get when I'm practicing unamplified at home. But as a hobby player, hours of home practice on a daily basis isn't possible, so quite a lot of my practicing is with the band, therefore amplified. I suspect this is hindering my development of a good right-hand technique.

How the amplification system has changed over the years, how much better is it now? Is it something that has changed the way you approach the instrument (the fact that there’s an amplification and that it has become better with time)

Skipping this question because I've only been playing for a few years and had the Realist/AI/Raezer combination from the beginning.

How much of that has influenced the way you think about the music ? (about the composition, arrangement, function of the bass)

Absolutely not at all. To me, the acoustic sound of the double bass is exactly right for the straight ahead jazz I want to play, and I'm fighting against the amplification in my attempt to keep that sound. I'm not prepared to go with the amplified sound and work with it because it's the wrong sound.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by fingers

Yes. I think the way bands balance their sound has really changed. I unfortunately 'blame' drummers for part of this. It is almost impossible to play with a loud drummer without an amp. We take a bit of a "well if they can't quiet down then don't play with them" approach around here but then the reality of working sets in. Having a no nonsense sound and attitude keeps you working. Some guys, like ED, get it to work. I wish I could. Truthfully I only go ampless if there is no drummer on the gig. Sometimes the vibe of the band depends on the drummer being able to let loose a bit. Nature of the beast I guess

.

Well, actually there is quite a difference between today's modern drum kits and the ones players used in the 60' and 70's. They are a great deal louder because of improved construction and manufacturing techniques. So IMHO it's drummers who play on a kit that's actually designed for pop and rock that create the problems. Good drummers have two kits one for jazz.

Originally Posted by fingers

I went to an interesting clinic with Wynton a few years back. He was critiquing a college band. The first thing he said was "Some nice playing. Now the bass player has got to lose that amp and you need to work on balancing you sound acoustically". Always stuck with me. Love him or not, Wynton's band has a great sound.

Wynton was definitely a driving force (not the only one mind you) in the no amplifier movement. However, you have to have a good deal of knowledge and experience playing into a mic and the sound man has to know how to mic a bass correctly. John Clayton and Todd Coolman were both doing this before Wynton decided to be the spokesperson.

[fingers]

Originally Posted by Ric Vice

.

Well, actually there is quite a difference between today's modern drum kits and the ones players used in the 60' and 70's. They are a great deal louder because of improved construction and manufacturing techniques. So IMHO it's drummers who play on a kit that's actually designed for pop and rock that create the problems. Good drummers have two kits one for jazz.

Agreed but lotsa jazz cats who play vintage jazz kits can still be plenty loud IME. I personally have no problem with drummers getting loud as long as it fits the situation at hand.

Originally Posted by Ric Vice

Wynton was definitely a driving force (not the only one mind you) in the no amplifier movement. However, you have to have a good deal of knowledge and experience playing into a mic and the sound man has to know how to mic a bass correctly. John Clayton and Todd Coolman were both doing this before Wynton decided to be the spokesperson.

How did those guys (clayton and Coolman) deal with amps and pickups?

The one that we hear the most about is 'young lions' thing in New York. The sort of neo-traditionalist movement. I love to hear about this from a sommeone who was there when it was in its hayday.

[Matthijs]

-Under bridge pickup and a specialised amp, pa assistance when nescessary.
-in studio just a mike
-I don't think there's a big influence on my technique. I do use different sounds life though, not all of them are true to the acoustic sound. sometimes it's better to sound larger than life, sometimes it saves me the trouble of changing over to an electric bass, sometimes it's just fun to try something different.
-Being able to have the option of a big, more bass heavy sound changed the way salsa an modern bigbands sound. I personally like that and I think the duke would have liked it too.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by fingers

Agreed but lotsa jazz cats who play vintage jazz kits can still be plenty loud IME. I personally have no problem with drummers getting loud as long as it fits the situation at hand.

Originally Posted by fingers

How did those guys (clayton and Coolman) deal with amps and pickups?

Todd had the Older Schertler Stat B when I first heard him. Later he started using the AMT into the house without a pickup. John uses a mic for the most part without a pickup. I haven't seen either one of these gentlemen for a while but that's what they were doing when they played St. Louis in the 90's.

Originally Posted by fingers

The one that we hear the most about is 'young lions' thing in New York. The sort of neo-traditionalist movement. I love to hear about this from a sommeone who was there when it was in its hayday.

That would be great wouldn't it. George Mraz was one of the few players who IMHO sounded great with the Wilson Pickup. Charlie Hayden used the Dual Element Stat B and you have to love his sound.

[David Moss]

Originally Posted by Ric Vice

Charlie Hayden used the Dual Element Stat B and you have to love his sound.

I was at a workshop with Charlie Haden recently, we discussed all the different amplification gear and approaches, and he demonstrated his great sound to us, but with his amp set very quiet. Practically everybody in the room shouted simultaneously "Yeah, but they all sound great when they're set that quiet! How does it sound when you make it louder?" Charlie said "Why would I want to make it louder?" We all kind looked at each other, and somebody said "Well, to be heard over the band". Charlie said "Sorry, I don't understand - I always play just like this, and the band plays quiet enough so everybody can hear me."

Yeah, if you're Charlie Haden they do...

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by David Moss

I was at a workshop with Charlie Haden recently, we discussed all the different amplification gear and approaches, and he demonstrated his great sound to us, but with his amp set very quiet. Practically everybody in the room shouted simultaneously "Yeah, but they all sound great when they're set that quiet! How does it sound when you make it louder?" Charlie said "Why would I want to make it louder?" We all kind looked at each other, and somebody said "Well, to be heard over the band". Charlie said "Sorry, I don't understand - I always play just like this, and the band plays quiet enough so everybody can hear me."

Yeah, if you're Charlie Haden they do...

Charlie is so significant in the "Jazz Bass Lexicon" that folks will play quieter with him, and the people he plays with are very good at using dynamics. (that dosen't hold true for us mortals). Actually, he has no choice but to play soft since he suffers from tinnitus and hypercussus. When I saw him with Song X they had to enclose him in a plexiglass box.

[Clay_Bass]

if you go to todd coolman's website (toddcoolman.com) and send him an email he should be quick responding to you. He is currently playing a Euphonic Audio set up. Also, Dave Holland was very quick to respond to my emails multiple times at the email from his website. Most of those guys mentioned should be fairly quick in responding to emails through their personal websites.


- Do you amplify your bass, or not at all ? why ? (in both positive or negative answer)
I play jazz with other people almost everyday of the week here at school and I never amplify myself in any situation other than performances and it is at a very low volume. Something I've worked on since I stated is producing a big acoustic sound and I feel I get more response from the bass itself and other band members when I play acousticly.
Even with medium action and steel strings I have never been told that others had trouble hearing me even over very loud drummers.


- What is your current gear for the amplificaiton of the bass ? (is it mostly pick-up, or microphone, or a mix of both, or a transducer, or something else; through a bass amp, the PA…. ?)
I use a realist pickup. The amp varies. My personal amp is a trace elliot head with an ashdown 2 10 cabinet, but I have acess to an acoustic image combo most of the time I need to use an amp.


- Is it the same live and in studio ?
No. I record through a mic only.

- Is the amplification a part of your sound or do you try to hear the very sound of the bass, only louder ?
I try to deal with the sound of an amp and project my sound through it as best I can. Low amp volume and playing with a big acoustic tone is the best compromise I've found for myself. But thats not to say I don't absolutely love some amplified tones, I just cant seem to get them myself. I really enjoy Eddie Gomez and NHOP's sounds, Also some of Ron Carters amp tones I can dig.

- Does the amplification has any kind of influence on the set up of your bass ? (lower action, smaller bass, different kind of strings)
No. I play a big bass with medium action and hybrid strings.

- How has it helped/prevent your playing ? (the technique, the sound, anything else)
It just allows me to play in certain situations where I can't compete without straining. Technique wise it really hasn't affected me at all.

- How the amplification system has changed over the years, how much better is it now? Is it something that has changed the way you approach the instrument (the fact that there’s an amplification and that it has become better with time)
Well I wasn't around to see the days when no one used an amp, But I do think it has helped and hurt. It's clearly helped certain people truly achive their personal sounds and concepts, but it along with loud drummers has left many other intruments with a lack of dynamic range.


- How much of that has influenced the way you think about the music ? (about the composition, arrangement, function of the bass)
Although it goes against some of what I said, I do think that amps have affected the way some people arrange their music. Its allowed bass players to play more rhythmically and melodically oriented lines and be heard clearly above a band. Not to say this isn't possible without an amp, but the amp has helped to make this a more standard thing in modern jazz.