I've got to learn to eq

[TroyK]

I've got to learn how to use the eq's on my amps. I've got my bass sounding as I want it to now, but as the room changes over the night, I can't adjust to it without loosing the goodness.

I twiddle and sometimes I get lucky, but I don't actually know what I'm doing.

[bolo]

Dave Moulton's name has been mentioned in this forum. He has what looks like a seriously in-depth CD collection and textbook called Golden Ears that I am not familiar with, but perhaps I should be. Looks like it goes into a broader variety of engineering and production topics besides just EQ, such as effects, delays & decays, stereo miking & mixing, more.

I also thought someone said he had a free primer type course on EQ available somewhere. If anyone knows where to locate that, please say so.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I'm not sure how much technical jargon you'll need to learn once you get the hang of it, but for me, what helped me start to get a handle on the whole EQ concept was watching an engineer clean up and mix my bass sound in the studio. He had a lot of EQ tools to play with that most amps don't have, but also the knowledge of what frequencies he was trying to adjust, and was able to turn some pretty marginal sounds into some damn fine sounding tracks.

There are several ways to approach and use this information. One way (by far the simplest IME) is to get a basic understanding of the general pitch/frequency mapping, which tells you what notes vibrate at which frequencies. For instance, your open strings vibrate at roughly 41(E), 55(A), 73(D), and 98(G) hz. Then if you understand that often we perceive the first overtone of any given note (which is an octave above the fundamental, and is a simple "x2" doubling of the frequency of the fundamental) very strongly, you can make some serious adjustments with a notch filter.

For instance, my bass has a ridiculously loud open "D" string in relation to the other notes around it. On recordings, it tends to blot out the sun when the level of the track comes up, and does the same thing in loud amplified settings. After watching the studio cleanup of my sound, I learned that I can get rid of this "wolf tone" by notching out 73hz and 146 hz. Oddly enough, if I only have one notch filter to work with, it's the 146 hz frequency which quiets the wolf best.

The other way that understanding and learning to hear the frequency spectrum can help you is by understanding the basic "vibe" of various ranges of the spectrum so you can make adjustments of basic overall color ranges. I find this process much more difficult and time consuming, but still very important and worthwhile. A good engineer can hear a sound that has some flab or imbalance in it and know the general area to start cutting frequencies to clean it up. Most of the good ones I've worked with tend to cut offensive frequencies out of a sound rather than try to "add" desirable ones. Hope some of this jibber jabber makes sense and is helpful.

[fingers]

...and of course try to apply this in a noisy bar with the drummer wailing away and and out of tune piano.

[Jason Hollar]

Try not to over think it. You have some nice amps and/or a preamp right?

Usually the "mud" is in the low midrange and the "clack" is in the upper mids.

On My Boss Bass EQ pedal (stoopidly easy to use) I almost always cut a little of the 400, 500, and 800HZ (in a smiley curve) as those are the most nasty sounding frequencies with my setup. I leave my amp set mostly flat and sometimes pull out a bit of mids from it as well.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

For instance, my bass has a ridiculously loud open "D" string in relation to the other notes around it. On recordings, it tends to blot out the sun when the level of the track comes up, and does the same thing in loud amplified settings. After watching the studio cleanup of my sound, I learned that I can get rid of this "wolf tone" by notching out 73hz and 146 hz. Oddly enough, if I only have one notch filter to work with, it's the 146 hz frequency which quiets the wolf best.

Chris,
I think that most basses have two frequencies that cause problems. Mine certainly does, although I'm not sure of the exact frequencies . This really supports the case for either two notch filters to get at both of them or a two channel amplifier with assignable notch filters that you can switch over to work with either channel.
Ric

[Jason Hollar]

Fingers -- you got that right!

Troy -- remember you recently came to the conclusion that the best set of strings was a good setup?

I think the best solution to most of my amp EQ woes is a good drummer (with a set of brushes!)

[aluminumbassguy]

Amen to that! And tell that group of 10 to 20 people standing in front of you to shut up or leave/move (I usually use my inside voice). Sometimes I think my bass sounds best at the beginning of the nite when nobody's there and the same at the end.

[Treyzer]

Originally Posted by fingers

...and of course try to apply this in a noisy bar with the drummer wailing away and and out of tune piano.

This is a great discussion and thanks all for the input. It seems the most that I've learned is from good engineers. As Chris said, they usually pull or notch certain freq. They don't add.

Funny thing, the bass I use most now is my new bass from Lemur, it's pretty sturdy and can take far more abuse than my old Czech. The newer bass records well with little or no IQ (engineer joke), provided good mikes are used. It has a tone/sound that I like quite a bit and it sounds great in a studio and/or my house unamplified. However, getting a sound that approximates how it sounds naturally in a hotel or local watering hole can be hard. There are so many variables. It depends on the room and the people I'm playing with, how noisy the crowd is. Sometimes it feels easy and sometimes it's impossible.......Last night was great, the night before with a different trio, ....not so great.

Let's face it.. we have an instrument that is none too easy to amplify. Best of luck to all of us...

[PocketGroove82]

Here is the best thing you can possibly do to get your intended sound out to the audience, regardless of if you are mic'd or using a pickup. My advice...bring a friend who REALLY understands YOUR sound to soundcheck. Have him/her sit in the audience and let you know how you are coming across and if you need to adjust your EQ to compensate for things like an overly boomy/live room, or something as simple as turning up your volume. My friends and I use hand signals to dictate volume changes and we puff our cheeks out to show that it's too boomy.

Often times, I have to dial ALL of the lowend out of my amp because a room is so boomy, and yes it sounds awful standing right next to it but in the 5th row it sounds great. Go fig. Each room is different and a great solo sound can actually not work at all when playing in a group.

Hopefully, your friend can stick around through a set or two and let you what you need to adjust. Because, a really live empty room at soundcheck can take on a whole new character by the second set when it's packed with bodies.

Matt

[clink]

It would be nice to have a good bassist friend on every gig. Let him play and I'll sit and relaxWould he go for a 20% cut?

[adbass]

I am slowly learning the eq thing too. For live sound, it's really tough to do yourself b/c, as others have stated, it's impossible to know for sure what the bass is sounding like out front vs. in front of the amp. I try to use my intuition and listen for what's going on out in the room, but, again, that's not easy and not always accurate.

Anyway, my first experiment didn't end well. It consisted of me wanting to put a every frequency coming through the pickup (FC) through a preamp and power amp. This was in another thread, but basically, the subsonic frequencies created by the pickup and, to my ignorance, boosted by the preamp fried a couple of my speakers.

For those really boomy rooms, the low cut filter around 30 or 40Hz is really convenient. I was playing in a big, boomy room with a singer/songwriter guy and a harmonica player on Monday night. The harpist walked out front and reported that the bass was boomy and lacking definition. I used the low cut filter on the Focus at 30Hz (thanks Uncletoad) and dialed the bass knob down a hair. That seemed to do the trick. Also, a little boost around 2 Khz is good for introducing a bit of "finger noise" or "string noise" as it's often referred to.

As far as a more controlled environment: In the studio last weekend (Signature Sound in Pomfret Connecticut --a totally incredible experience -- thanks to engineer Mark Thayer) was educational too. Mark put a nice Brunner mic in front of my bass in a nicely tuned little room. Like Chris Fitz's experience, Mark cut back a little bit at 130 Hz, and added just a hair at 2khz. I actually have an mp3, but I'm not sure how to get it up onto Talkbass. Anyway, I was very happy with the sound.

[TroyK]

Originally Posted by Jason Hollar

Fingers -- you got that right!

Troy -- remember you recently came to the conclusion that the best set of strings was a good setup?

I think the best solution to most of my amp EQ woes is a good drummer (with a set of brushes!)

Yes indeed. Though the night that prompted this post was sans drummer. I was competing with silverware clanking and general changes in the (very strange) room that is this particular resturant. Playing there again this week, so I'd better figure it out. I'm bringing the GK this time, though because I'm catching a ride with someone and need to skinny down as much as possible.

This was my thread and I've missed a bunch of good input. Thanks for keeping it going. I'll subscribe so that I don't miss anything again.

[MR PC]

The freq's I found useful years ago and still use with my upright came from working with the TC Electronic Dual Band Para EQ pedal. I wish they could reissue that pedal. You can power at 9, 18 or even 27 volts, though justa 9v batt works very well, lotsa headroom.

Slight cut at **** roughly**** 60hz (band 1) and 120hz (band 2). Bandwith at noon (3) for both. Slight cut or boost with the treble knob depending on the situation.....I can't remember if it's 2k or 3k on the treble, but it sure sounds good, very smooth taper either way.

[steve_n_his_urb]

I just got hold of a 'voice processor' (a second hand VX2496) for the equivalent of $US65, and it has some handy features for running a mic into an amp or PA - adjustable lo cut, variable +/- notch('warmth') and presence(1.5KHz) , phase invert, compression (and some features I am not using: 'breath', 'absence', 'authentic simulated' valve sound, de-esser). It has an unbalanced phono out and 2 XLRs (one is pre-deEsser). And mains power (no brick/wall wart).

I am using the lo cut around 65 - 80 Hz, much higher up than Adbass... wow I thought 50 or 60Hz was pretty 'thunderous'! - anyway, the ears are the ultimate test and I am sure the PA is much happier without those sub-30 vibs.

I am also taking off about 3dB at ~ 180Hz as my bass is very lively around that spot.

Trying out things at low amplification volumes is really tricky for me as the bass itself then contributes a lot to what I hear (it becomes 'my bass, but at the same volume' ). I tried mic->VX-> mixer-> headphones but the headphones leak a lot, and when I tried the phase invert, I could almost hear nothing at all. It took a moment to work out how that came about.

in the end I record straight into my Mac, and burn the results temporarily onto a CDRW, then sit back and listen to the recording. It takes away the acoustic sound of the bass within the room and lets you hear what is going down the cable (including all the playing errors). I guess I could record my bass 'straight up' and then use the line input on the VX to play the recording and fuddle with EQ on a looped recording until I got a result I wanted...

Steve

[jrlynch]

regarding eq technique, my fav approach is to crank up specific bands of eq, sweeping them if you have a parametric, finding the point where it really sounds like ****, then backing that off from flat.

less is always more. and if the rig needs serious eq'in ... buy a new rig.

jeff.

[larssonanton]

Originally Posted by jrlynch

less is always more. and if the rig needs serious eq'in ... buy a new rig.

jeff.

Overall I agree with that, but it also comes to what type of room you are in, what type of floor you play on, your bass, your pickup, etc...

[bolo]

Originally Posted by steve_n_his_urb

I am using the lo cut around 65 - 80 Hz, much higher up than Adbass... wow I thought 50 or 60Hz was pretty 'thunderous'! - anyway, the ears are the ultimate test ...

I set the high pass filter on my Focus at 70 Hz. Yes it does make the sound somewhat less natural when played solo in your music room at home and standing right next to your amp. But on a gig it really cuts out the mud. I think it makes my note length and articulation a lot more discernible to others. That in turn helps the drummer lock in, and that in turn helps the whole band feel the pulse better and swing harder. Plus, like Chris and others have said, the sound warms up a bit as it travels away from your amp and out into the room. So I wanna hear some edge in the mids when I am up close. Just my experience.

I should point out that I use a Rev Solo, with the "R" symbol facing the table, mounted on the E string side. Without the HP, it is a bottom-heavy tone. The HP results in a string-to-string volume balance that more closely matches my unamped sound. So the HPF is really the only EQ I use. YMMV.

Originally Posted by steve_n_his_urb

Trying out things at low amplification volumes is really tricky for me as the bass itself then contributes a lot to what I hear (it becomes 'my bass, but at the same volume' ). I tried mic->VX-> mixer-> headphones but the headphones leak a lot, and when I tried the phase invert, I could almost hear nothing at all. It took a moment to work out how that came about.

in the end I record straight into my Mac, and burn the results temporarily onto a CDRW, then sit back and listen to the recording. It takes away the acoustic sound of the bass within the room and lets you hear what is going down the cable (including all the playing errors). I guess I could record my bass 'straight up' and then use the line input on the VX to play the recording and fuddle with EQ on a looped recording until I got a result I wanted...

This is a great suggestion. So is using a handheld recorder to record your gigs from the listener's vantage point.

[fingers]

Originally Posted by bolo

This is a great suggestion.

I've had the opposite experience. I've wasted a tone of time on this as I have an inordinate amount of recording gear set up all the time where I practice. I get a tone that I think kills and I always end up changing it on the gig.

Originally Posted by bolo

So is using a handheld recorder to record your gigs from the listener's vantage point.

This on the other hand has really helped me. We can twiddle all we want with our stage sound but get 15' from the stage and the tone is TOTALLY different.

I've really just given up. I feel like I have done all kinds of ****ing around and gotten a tone that I really like (but involves carrying more ****) only to have it sound the same to everyone on the stage and the recorder reveals the same. Now I just get a sound that makes me play my best and that usually get a pretty good sound out in the house. That usually ends up with the eq pretty flat (maybe a slight bump in the mids so I can hear my intonation well) and a HPF set in the 60hz range and then I get to the task of playing bass.

I use a Realist-->Fishman Platinum Pro-->GK MB150S. I sometimes use the MBX112 for louder hits but if that is not enough there is usually a pa. If there is a pa I put a Beta 57 on an h-clamp pointed right at the E-side ff hole.

Feeling dark about the whole thing. Maybe I got up on the wrong side of the bed. Need coffee.

[adbass]

Originally Posted by bolo

I set the high pass filter on my Focus at 70 Hz. Yes it does make the sound somewhat less natural when played solo in your music room at home and standing right next to your amp. But on a gig it really cuts out the mud.

In certain rooms I've def used the high pass at 70 - 80Hz. I agree in that I've found it reduces the boominess and allows you to cut right through, but if I'm getting definition to my sound, I'd rather keep the low stuff in there and permeate under the band at a lower, less "aggressive" volume. Does that make sense? I've found if you can find a nice, "lowish" frequency niche in a band, you can usually get away with minimum amplification because you've got less sound at that timbre/frequency niche to compete with. (I don't know, maybe I'm not articulating this well, or am completely delusional.)

As far as recording goes, I've had the good fortune to play in the same room(s) over and over and have recorded myself countless times with one of those discontinued Sony MiniDisc recorders. I've have learned A TON from this, after escaping the "wow, we sound great!" ego trap and getting into the nitty gritty. Ideally, I set the recorder 15 to 20 feet from the stage. It's quite a learning experience, not only for eq adjustment but also to realize all of ones bad habits. The tape never lies!