a little clarity please on AI combos

[flint]

I am currently using an Ashdown ABM 500 EVO 2x10 combo. It sounds good, and can be used with either slab or upright. Thing is, I don't play the slab very much, and it's kind of heavy. I am temporarily handicapped with a busted leg, so it is all the more cumbersome.

I was thinking about selling her, as it's practically brand new, and putting that $$ towards an AI combo. However, while cruising EvilBay I ran across this listing: http://tinyurl.com/yrdoq9

Granted that auction is closed, but in the description the seller says:
"This is NOT recommended for LOUD playing levels!! It can not compete with loud drummers or guitarists in any setting or +15 piece big bands. Large, tiled rooms and outside venues are not ideal and will relegate this amp to merely a monitor for yourself. If loud playing levels are needed, an extension cabinet rated at 4 ohms is needed to raise the output to 300 watts."

Is this everyone's experience? What about all the "...it cut through the 15 piece band like darth vader's light saber through lukes hand" Is that hype?

When does the AI stuff let you down, and when does it hold up?

Inquiring minds want to know.

thanks
Flint

[Dr.Ken]

I, too, have some similar questions.

From what i can see, the ebay post you list was for a prior model. The newer, Series III models seem to have bumped up power quite a bit (400w if I remember correctly).

Anyway, the newer ones may be able to hang better with larger groups.

My question is about the downfiring design. Seems like this is a very polarizing issue: some love it, some absolutely hate it. Any reasons (ie, more prone to feedback, can't elevate it at all)?

My other question is about the EQ section and on board toys. I am running a Fishman Full Circle into a Fishman Platinum ProEq and have been looking to complete the chain. I'm not sure if all the toys on the AI would be needed in my case (but want some opinions!).

I was experimenting one day and found my Yamaha MSR100 powered monitor sounds great, very natural. However, just not enough oomph. So, I was considering purchasing the bigger MSR400 (a powered PA cab which can be stand mounted, has 300 watts, SPL of 121db, and 50-20khz range). So, my interest is in the AI or Yamaha.

I'm not against spending my money, but want to do so wisely. Appreciate all thoughts.

[bnutz]

I don't have experience using AI amps in a live situation myself, but have messed around with the older version of the Contra- the combo that looks like a paper shredder in a waste basket- at a shop for a while, and have seen and talked to other players that use them.

My opinion is that AI is doing what they set out to do really well, in that the amps are the most faithful and unaldulturated reproduciton of the true sound of the instrument I've heard. I generally feel that the bulk of getting great tone is in the hands, but that said, I'm not a great (or even very good) upright player (although the other bassists I've seen using AI stuff are) and was still able to get great natural tone from the Clarus.

What the Clarus didn't do so well was being loud enough to compete with a drummer. One player I witnessed in a avant-garde/rock/jazz band had a hard time hearing herself on stage, although the sound in the house, via DI, was killer. I also have a friend who uses one in a jazz combo with a percussionist, but when he plays with a drummer, he uses his Walter Woods.

I don't know much about the Focus head, which I think is much higher wattage.

-b

[fingers]

Originally Posted by chortle_nut

I was thinking about selling her, as it's practically brand new, and putting that $$ towards an AI combo. However, while cruising EvilBay I ran across this listing: http://tinyurl.com/yrdoq9

I borrowed this exact amp from a friend a few years back. At a certain volume the speaker started distorting. He said that with an extension cab the little sucker gets really loud. With an 4 ohm extension cab it runs at 300 watts. Unfortunately that ruins the portbility you wanted.

[16fuss]

Hi, I had an Series2 AI- Combo for a few years and always had Volume Issues.
Then I checked the amp with different cabs (Glockenklang 112, Ampeg Pb110) - it is much louder!! No more Problems.
THe shown Ebay-AI is cheep, isnt it (at least in Europe this would be a good price!)? You can easily divide the amp from the cab, and sell it as an extensionspeaker.
In my opinion the AI is the best lightweight amp (at least better then WW 1oo, GK, SWR and Markbass)

[bolo]

Originally Posted by chortle_nut

I am currently using an Ashdown ABM 500 EVO 2x10 combo. It sounds good, and can be used with either slab or upright. Thing is, I don't play the slab very much, and it's kind of heavy. I am temporarily handicapped with a busted leg, so it is all the more cumbersome.

I was thinking about selling her, as it's practically brand new, and putting that $$ towards an AI combo. However, while cruising EvilBay I ran across this listing: http://tinyurl.com/yrdoq9

Granted that auction is closed, but in the description the seller says:
"This is NOT recommended for LOUD playing levels!! It can not compete with loud drummers or guitarists in any setting or +15 piece big bands. Large, tiled rooms and outside venues are not ideal and will relegate this amp to merely a monitor for yourself. If loud playing levels are needed, an extension cabinet rated at 4 ohms is needed to raise the output to 300 watts."

Is this everyone's experience? thanks
Flint

Flint,

Howdy. The seller’s description was perhaps overly dramatic, but I have a Contra Series I and the EX extension cab. For most of my gigging needs (i.e. louder than I tend to prefer, inc. crowd noise in bars), I tend to fare better with a front-firing cab from Euphonic Audio. And I haven't heard the Ashdown ABM 500 EVO 2x10, but I would be willing to bet it can move quite a bit more air than the Contra, especially the Series I and Series II. It's got almost twice the driver surface area for one thing.

That said, I love the Contra’s unique, natural sound and its design. And Rick Jones the designer and owner at AI has been way, way cool to me when I have talked to him. The Contra does have volume limitations, but that is by design. The tradeoff is that you end up with a very compact and light weight enclosure, and IMO excellent clarity in reproducing the sound of the double bass.

It really depends a lot on your gigging situations. I used my Contra about 10 days ago in a big room. But it was just a duo, and the crowd was attentive, so they weren’t noisy. Sounded very natural in that setting. Load in and load out was a breeze too.

Dr. Ken is correct to focus on the fact that the down-firing woofer is part of what makes the Contra so different. While you can tilt up the front for more perceived output, you cannot as Dr. Ken said elevate it. It needs to be sitting on the floor or on a chair, either flat or tilted, because having the speaker that close to an opposing surface is necessary to load the speaker the way it was designed.

Dr.Ken and bnutz were also correct in noting that the Series III models do have significantly more power. Some users claim that this almost completely overcomes the problems associated with the older models, and some go so far as to say it is not even close when you compare the newer ones to the older versions.

The only other thing I can add (from my own experience) is that the type of pickup you are using (and your bass and fingers of course) can also be key contributors to a weak or muddy sound. It’s not always the amp’s fault. Up until a few years ago, I probably would have been complaining about a “weak” sound in that gig I did 10 days ago. But nowadays my pickup is different, and more importantly my technique and my ability to get a bigger sound w/out an amp has improved.

[bolo]

Originally Posted by fingers

I borrowed this exact amp from a friend a few years back. At a certain volume the speaker started distorting. He said that with an extension cab the little sucker gets really loud. With an 4 ohm extension cab it runs at 300 watts. Unfortunately that ruins the portbility you wanted.

That distortion may have actually been the power amp and not the speaker. I am basing my comment on a discussion about the Contra that I had a long time ago w/ Bob Gollihur.

As noted above, the Series III models have mo' power, which may help address this issue. That said, I find that I typically have to cut the bass w/ my Series I, esp. as the overall volume goes up. If I had a Series III, I would probably use the high pass filter instead of the bass EQ knob to tackle that boominess and rumble.

[Dr.Ken]

Steve,

Thanks for the reply. I was curious about your "chair" comment. Can the AI be placed on an elevated table and be OK (or does it need to 'couple' with a much larger floor area, if you get what I am saying)?

The reason being is that it would be very handy to have the AI on a small, flat, elevated table so controls can be reached easily at the gig. Just so happens I picked up a fairly sturdy, small table (2ft x 3ft surface area) for not much $$ at the evil empire known as Walmart . If this would be enough surface area to keep reasonable low end, I may be a new AI owner.

Thoughts appreciated.

[bass dan]

ironically enough i bought the exact amp you discussed that was on ebay. used it on agig wednday night. loved it, although i was using a electric bass and a sadowky preamp, it was plenty loud enough and sounded great. the direct out was hooked up, but not needed.

[bolo]

Originally Posted by Dr.Ken

Steve,

Thanks for the reply. I was curious about your "chair" comment. Can the AI be placed on an elevated table and be OK (or does it need to 'couple' with a much larger floor area, if you get what I am saying)?

The reason being is that it would be very handy to have the AI on a small, flat, elevated table so controls can be reached easily at the gig. Just so happens I picked up a fairly sturdy, small table (2ft x 3ft surface area) for not much $$ at the evil empire known as Walmart . If this would be enough surface area to keep reasonable low end, I may be a new AI owner.

Thoughts appreciated.

Dr.Ken,

You're welcome. I actually prefer the way the Contra sounds up on a chair in certain settings. I would think a table should be just fine, especially if it's wood and reasonably sturdy.

IME chairs that are covered in upholstery, cloth, or leather don't work quite so well. In contrast, I have rock maple kitchen chairs at home that work great. Nice hard, reflective surface for that driver to "push" against.

The floor coupling thing can be good or bad. Bad if for example you are on a huge wooden stage or riser that is basically hollow underneath. Can get excessively boomy.

But like Rick Jones told me once, the biggest variable in how the Contra performs is not the unit itself, but the room. I find this to be true even with my front-firing cabs. Floor v. raised. Close to or away from walls and corners. That's what I focus on whenever I encounter a new room.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by bolo

But like Rick Jones told me once, the biggest variable in how the Contra performs is not the unit itself, but the room.

The Contra and every other speaker system in the world.

[fingers]

Originally Posted by drurb

The Contra and every other speaker system in the world.

+1

Some designs are more vulnerable than others though. I actually find sealed enclosures less troublesome than ported ones. I usually use a GK MB 150 but if I am doubling I use a SWR WM 12 or my big rig (some ampeg thing). I find that the eq on the GK can take care of most wierd resonances that vary from room to room. Both the SWR and the Ampeg are ported (rear). Sometimes I have to stuff a towel in the port to get a good upright tone. I'm not sure how this applies to the Contra but friends of mine have complained about it in certain rooms.

As far as the distrortion... it was definitely the speaker. I tried everything to get it to go away. No change. Granted I had to get pretty loud...

[drurb]

Originally Posted by fingers

Some designs are more vulnerable than others though. I actually find sealed enclosures less troublesome than ported ones.

While it is definitely the case that some designs are more prone to the effects of room placement, I don't think that this, in general, breaks down across sealed, infinite baffle designs vs. ported designs. I am not at all questioning your experience with the designs you have used, I am simply saying that I don't think it generalizes to the population of designs in those two categories. For example, I would expect rear-ported designs to be more affected by back-wall proximity than front-ported designs. So, your experience makes perfect sense.

[fingers]

..and that makes sense since you never know what's going to be behind you.