Need a Phantom box with 1/4 out. Suggestions?

[Bassphil]

Hi everyone. I'm hoping that someone has a suggestion for a phantom power supply that has a 1/4 instrument out instead of a XLR out.

I've been sans-pickup for about 7 years now. In town, I cart my Acoustic Image Ten2 around, which has an XLR input and phantom power. Perfect for what I need.

However, when I go on the road, I'd rather not drag my Acoustic Image head on the road. It's already hard enough dragging a bass!

What I need is a small, simple box with phantom. Plug the DPA bass mic into one end, plug a regular guitar cable into the other so I can use any bass amp.

Any suggestions? Everything that I find lacks a 1/4 inch out. The Headway looks nice, but it lacks the 1/4 out and it's overkill. At large concerts, I just run the mic directly into the board and have the stage sound man set a monitor up to act as a bass amp...

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

-Phil

[CrewsControl]

Maybe the ART Tube MP

Provides Superior Preamplification for: Microphones, Instruments and Line Level Sources
Hand Selected 12AX7a Provides 70dB of Gain Smooth, Warm and Fat Sound Quality
Variable Input and Output Gain Controls
Excellent as a Tube DI
XLR and 1/4" Inputs and Outputs +48 volts
Phantom Power
Phase Reversal Switch
Superior Sonic Performance to On-Board Preamps
TEC-Award Nominated Design
Portable, All Steel Construction
1 Year Warranty

They are around $30 at GC, MF, etc.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by Bassphil

What I need is a small, simple box with phantom. Plug the DPA bass mic into one end, plug a regular guitar cable into the other so I can use any bass amp.l

Phil,
You played on the Lafaro Bass wow!!! How cool is that.
Well this is just my opinion, but for what it's worth.
+1 On The ART Mic Tube Preamp. -1 on the bass amp for the DPA 4099 B. I found it very difficult to control feedback and that's using a Headway EDB-1 with all kinds of EQ controls. It really surprised me because it's so incredible into the FOH.

Originally Posted by Bassphil

Any suggestions? Everything that I find lacks a 1/4 inch out. The Headway looks nice, but it lacks the 1/4 out and it's overkill. At large concerts, I just run the mic directly into the board and have the stage sound man set a monitor up to act as a bass amp...

Actually, the Headway EDB-1 has a 1/4 line out on the side of the box that will do exactly what you are asking. I've tried that into a Walter Woods MI-400-8 but the Headway's pre amp in front of the Wood's own pre amp is just over kill and to hard to control. It works great into the power amp section of most any amp. There also is one other small catch with the Headway. It uses two 9 volts for a total of 18 volts phantom into the DPA 4099. So it's a little noisy.
Love the playing.

Originally Posted by Bassphil

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

-Phil

[Michael Glynn]

There are cheap phantom power supplies by Rolls, Nady, Art, and others, but they mostly have XLR outputs. You could just get one of those and an XLR to 1/4 adapter for the cheap and easy route.

However, I would recommend getting something with an actual preamp, because the 1/4" inputs on many bass amps might not have enough gain for the mic signal. The XLR input on the Ten2 has higher gain than the 1/4" input, so you don't need a separate preamp, but you might on a different amp.

Something with a notch filter and/or phase reversal might be helpful for feedback control, and the Headway has both of those. Ric seems to have some trouble with feedback even with those features, but maybe since you are doing fine with the AI it would work for you. I think the Headway only has 18V phantom power, which may not be ideal for the 4099, but it clearly works.

[wilsonn]

I have a DTAR Solstice that offers 15v of phantom power and has both 1/4" and xlr outs.

[jeffbonny]

A competent tech could likely mod any generic $50 phantom box like a Rolls or Apex. What's involved? A new jack, a resistor and a cap and the know-how? I bet you're talking about an hour of bench time and $10 in parts. Surely NYC has a few guys that could do it. It's the most compact and to the point solution for the road and probably the least expensive. Hell, it might be doable just to have one built from scratch.

[Bassphil]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Jeffbonny- exactly what I was thinking. It should be pretty simple for somebody to fabricate, however...

CrewsControl- thanks for the suggestion of the Art. At $30, that would be a lot easier than tracking down someone in town, and I guess the size isn't that big. I wouldn't need it very often I guess.

Ric- thanks for the headsup on the Headway. I missed the 1/4 out on the side somehow. That looks awesome, but it's overkill for me.

Same for the DTAR- thanks wilsonn. I've seen those before. It reminds me of the Raven Labs mixer that I have, but the Raven doesn't have XLR ins, unfortunately.

For $30, I'm going to check out the Art first. If that doesn't work out for some reason, I like the idea of finding someone to build one for me.

Ric- thanks for checking out my website It was an amazing experience having Scotty's bass!

I've been using the DPA for about a year and a half now and it's been great. Yes, if you're not careful the feedback thing can take your head off!

f you check out the videos on my website where I'm playing with the Bill Mobley big band at Smoke, I'm only using the DPA. Actually, make sure you're looking at the live footage and not the footage from the recording session... Anyway, the amp at the club is an Acoustic Image head with a Epifani 1-10" cabinet, and it's under the piano directly behind my bass! I get the perfect amount of volume without the feedback.

I've used many mics in live situations, but the DPA seems to give me the most clarity and presence on a live gig. Standing next to the amp, the mic can sometimes sound a little lean, but when someone sits in on my bass and I walk out to the house, it sounds really natural.

Thanks for all the help guys! I'll post again when I have more info!

-Phil

[jeffbonny]

Something that might be cool and compact (but probably not practical to manufacture) is a mic splitter that also provided phantom power. When using your own phantom source in conjunction with a PA it's almost essential to use a high quality splitter like a Radial J2 or J3. Not only to split the signal to your amp and the PA but also to protect your mic from being overloaded if front of house also sends voltage to your mic.

[dilberto]

I got my DPA 4099, bundled with the DAD4099 pre-amp with XLR adapter, a week ago and mostly love it but have been grappling, since then, with how best way to deal with all the issues discussed here: phantom power; feedback; impedance matching; tone; resisting gear bloat, etc.

Let me start by saying, I haven't tried this mic with my upright bass yet - I'm focused on getting a good sound with my nylon string guitars, especially my 7-string, tuned to A1 (55 Hz, same as A string on the bass).

Phase reverse is the single most important thing I have found to make this mic sound great.

I tried different phantom power voltages (15v and 48v) and I think 15v was a tiny bit more noisy, but it didn't seem to affect the EQ issues.

Then I decided I needed a really good set of notch filters, not just one or two notches, with some wide bandwidth like 1/3 octave, which is common and sucks away tone, besides getting rid of feedback. (The more narrow the filter 'Q' (bandwidth), the better control you have over feedback, without compromising overall tone.)

I considered getting an automatic DSP feedback eliminator, but didn't want to risk having to give up control and possibly deal with computer hiss, etc. I finally bought a very nice analog equalizer: Rane PE-15 Parametric Equalizer, with variable bandwidth, center, gain and bypass on each of the five filters, not to mention shelving EQ at top and bottom ends.

This is way better than one or two notch filters: it is dead quiet and I can slowly turn up the gain and then zero in on killing any feedback, using just the minimal amount of attenuation, with the narrowest bandwidth on the filter. Though it handles feedback nicely, I still noticed the tone was a bit thin until I tried flipping the phase and it seemed to brighten and balance the sound a lot.

Here are a few more things I've discovered.

A very high frequency squeal easily pops up at around 10 kHz, this may be due to the boost that the DAD4099 provides there. Not sure, but watch out: I simply shelve everything > 10 kHz for now and it sounds fine to me.

Feedback is also very prevalent at around 100-150 Hz, then again at ~250 Hz and ~750 Hz, in my case, with the mic on a guitar.

Please see the 4099 manual: p. 23 has some helpful graphs of performance with and without the pre-amp cut-off, at both 20cm and 10cm.
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/~/medi...nuals/4099.pdf

As the graphs show, at 20cm, without the DAD4099, the mic is pretty flat, except for a ramp from around 5 to 10 kHz.

At 10cm, however, proximity effect results in going from flat at 500 Hz (above the range, of most basses, near B4, 493.9 Hz, the octave on the B string of the guitar) to a maximum of about 4 dB gain at around 200 Hz (near G3, 196 Hz: the octave on the G string of the bass), after which it levels off.

In other words, without any pre-amp bass cut, at 10cm distance, this mic would deliver a graceful bass boost throughout the normal playing range of the bass: everything below the octave on the G string.

With the use of the DAD4099, however, you get a roll-off of about -10 dB throughout this same range, both at 20cm and at 10cm - the difference being that, at 10cm, DAD4099 gives a resonance peak at around 150 Hz (exactly where I notice it being most prone to feedback), whereas, at 20cm response falls off from flat at around G3 to -10 dB at E1: you would probably just say that your bass sounds too thin, since most of us like to boost the bass, to compensate for the decreasing sensitivity of our hearing which is normal, as frequency declines in this range.

In other words, for bassists using the DPA 4099 mic, proximity effect is your friend; the DAD4099 may be your foe.
If I had known what I know now, I would have ordered the DAD6001-BC XLR adapter (flat response version), instead of the DAD4099 and maybe also avoided that horrible 10 kHz squeal, likely also caused by the preamp boost!

Some have reported elsewhere on this forum that DPA tech support told them that the 80 Hz cut-off provided by the DAD4099 pre-amp was for controlling proximity effect, however the manual says something different:

"....The DAD4099 adapter features a permanent second-order
low-cut filter at 80 Hz. The filter minimizes handling and wind
noise at the microphone output without compromising sound
quality, as guitar, sax, trumpet and violin have no appreciable
frequency response below 80 Hz."

I have a few problems with this statement:

1) First of all, guitar is quite often tuned down to D2 (73.42 Hz)
2) Seven string guitars are often tuned down to A1 (55 Hz)
3) The same mic and preamp (with 80 Hz cut-off) are sold to bassists who often tune down to C1 (32.70 Hz) or B0 (30.87 Hz)
4) The natural 'warmth' of both guitar and bass is effected by resonance below the frequency of the lowest string.

It almost seems that this mic was marketed to bassists, after becoming successful with other instruments, yet bundled with the same preamp, almost without concern for the true nature of the instrument.

I do not even know where I can buy the DAD6001-BC XLR adapter. DPA doesn't seem to sell it directly and I cannot find anyone who sells it.
In any case, keep the mic close to your bass and it will probably sound pretty good, as long as you have a phase reverse option and at least one notch filter to control 150 Hz feedback.

[Bassphil]

Firstly- nice post Dilberto. Here's a link to that what you seek:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._to_3_pin.html

I didn't realize that DPA had two different belt clips for that mic. Interesting. I wonder which one I've been using all this time.

I wanted to report back on my experience with the Art preamp. Well, it's not good. I don't like it. Having a tube in the signal chain seems to emphasize all the wrong things for an acoustic bass, and it makes feedback a problem. Tubes and the DPA are definitely not a good combination for live gigs.

For $30, though, I can deal with it. It just takes more tweaking with what ever amp I'm stuck with. Normally when I use a mic, I set the amp's EQ flat and position the mic. I just want my sound to sound like my sound. With the Art, I have to compensate a bit.

The worst thing about the Art, though, is that is seems to compress the signal pretty hard, which drives me crazy! It seems to be above and beyond what I would consider natural tube compression. I've tried all the settings, and nothing seems to make a difference. Maybe another tube would be better.

That said, I've used it a few times when the gig had a house bass amp and the volume level wasn't going to be to loud. It worked well enough to get through the gig with. If it's an important gig, I just drag out my Acoustic Image head and deal with the extra bag to carry on the Subway.

I should mention, however, that I spoke to the owner of a prominent company who is planning on releasing a two channel bass mixer soon that has 1/4 and XLR inputs and phantom. I'll ask him if I can spill the beans early and tell y'all about it

[Bassphil]

One more thing. Dilberto- I got my DPA at the last International Society of Bassists convention, and it did not come with the DAD4099. I seems to have come with the more bass friendly XLR adapter that you're looking for. Weird.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by Bassphil

One more thing. Dilberto- I got my DPA at the last International Society of Bassists convention, and it did not come with the DAD4099. I seems to have come with the more bass friendly XLR adapter that you're looking for. Weird.

Bass Phil,
Yeah, if you go back and look at the first thread that discussed the DPA 4099 they originally had two different adaptors. Several of the early adopters on Talk Bass ended with the DAD 4099, rather than the DAD6001, that is flat.
Fortunately, in my case, I bought mine directly from DPA and Mike Morgan, who worked for them at the time, suggested I use the DAD 6001. Evidently, either they still don't package the 4099 B with the DAD 6001 adaptor, or, if Dilberto bought the 4099 G, it wouldn't have the one I prefer.

Ric

[dilberto]

Originally Posted by Bassphil

Firstly- nice post Dilberto. Here's a link to that what you seek:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._to_3_pin.html

Thanks very much - I am ordering one now!

Funny thing is that I bought my DPA 4099-G from bhphotovideo.com but this adapter never came up in my google searches.

As I mentioned, my primary interest in the DPA is for guitar, but from all I had read, I assumed that the only difference with the 4099-B was in the mounting system so I figured the 4099-G would more easily adapt to bass than vice-versa. I thought they all shipped with the same DAD4099 and didn't know there was any other option.

I have also noticed that there are online sites that say the DAD4099 is no longer available for the 4099-B.

I'm guessing that some brilliant marketing director at DPA finally figured out that 80 Hz > 41.20 Hz (E1) and promptly stopped bundling this XLR adaptor with the 4099-B.

This is only my opinion, but I suspect that 80 Hz is greater than 73.42 Hz (D2) and, hence, not too well suited for guitar either.

Here's another little tidbit that I've learned in conversation with DPA support: the thin, fragile 1.6mm micro-dot cable that ships standard with all of the 4099 mics is also not the only game in town.

I wanted a spare replacement cable, just in case I roll over the 1.6mm with the wheel of a chair, or sneeze, or something.

I was told that they offer two cables now, for the same price.

micro-dot cable part number:
--------------------------------------------------
thin cable 1.6mm [orig equip] = CM1618B00
thicker cable 2.2mm = CM2218B00

The support guy recommended I get the thicker cable.

The only problem is that I can't find anyone selling the thicker cable. bhphotovideo.com doesn't have it. I can probably get DPA to sell it to me directly.

[DoubleMIDI]

A 2nd order filter below 80 Hz is not a problem for the sound of a double bass. I tried my ATM35 with my digital mixer (and tape) and found that dialing out below 80 to 100 Hz with something between 6 and 12 db/oct is better for a good double bass sound (mike a few centimeters from the top) than passing the unmodified bass frequencies.

And the mounting system for the double bass is seperately available for the DPA4099. I got one here in Germany and I'm using it with the ATM35.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by DoubleMIDI

A 2nd order filter below 80 Hz is not a problem for the sound of a double bass. I tried my ATM35 with my digital mixer (and tape) and found that dialing out below 80 to 100 Hz with something between 6 and 12 db/oct is better for a good double bass sound (mike a few centimeters from the top) than passing the unmodified bass frequencies.

And the mounting system for the double bass is seperately available for the DPA4099. I got one here in Germany and I'm using it with the ATM35.

Double Midi,
I don't know what that mount costs in Germany, but it's quite expensive here in the U.S. I had to purchase the bass mount Asa a separate unit, because it wasn't initially available. Personally, I never had the DAD 4099, as I orderd it with the DAD 6009. I think I'd rather have the option of not having the filter and dialing it out through the house. IME the DPA 4099 B dosen't play well with a bass amp like the ATM or the AMT 25B does.

Ric

[DoubleMIDI]

It was not too expensive from Thomann in Germany:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/dpa_bc_4099.htm (22 Euro from the british homepage)

I think I paid slightly more: 22.90 Euro, maybe due to compensate a bit the free shipping inside of Germany beginning at 25 Euro commodity value.

Thomann's shipping cost to the US unfortunately starts with 30 Euro, so will become expensive for that reason. It seems they only send insured packets, not small uninsured package up to 2 Kg (which are much cheaper here than the insured ones).

[dilberto]

Originally Posted by DoubleMIDI

A 2nd order filter below 80 Hz is not a problem for the sound of a double bass. I tried my ATM35 with my digital mixer (and tape) and found that dialing out below 80 to 100 Hz with something between 6 and 12 db/oct is better for a good double bass sound (mike a few centimeters from the top) than passing the unmodified bass frequencies.

The reason for this is that human hearing sensitivity deteriorates steadily, as frequency declines below 80 Hz - mostly, what we 'hear' for the lowest note on any bass is the octave above the fundamental.

My point is that you should still have access to that signal: it is not right for a preamp to be marketed to bassists that aggressively rolls off the fundamental - it should be up to the bassist to decide if they want to have access to this frequency, or amplify it, or cut it, since it belongs to you: it comes out of your bass and you own it.

Who knows, if you ever record your bass, and sell your recording, some listener may even have a sub-woofer, and might want to hear the full range of your instrument: what you actually played.

It is not right for DPA to bundle such pre-amps for bassists and guitarists, or to state in their technical documentation that [for bass and guitar] there is:
>"no appreciable frequency response below 80 Hz"

This is flat out wrong scientifically, and fraudulent, in terms of marketing, which probably explains why DPA pulled this preamp from the bass market.
Why they continue to market it to guitarists, without any consideration for guitar tuning, is a mystery to me.

[DoubleMIDI]

I think it is more the problem of the player thinking that the full frequency range must be present without any damping.

This is only true for putting the mike where the listener is, but not for really close position to the top. The lower frequencies are more distributed into the whole room and will not arrive as strong as the higher frequencies to the listener. So some damping (not completely cutting) of lower bass frequencies for close miking (like with the ATM35, DPA4099B etc.) is good for recording and also for the amp. It might depend on the room volume level how much low frequency content should be damped when using an amp.

If you cannot switch the low frequency high pass off you almost always think there must be something missing. If you can disable the high pass filter you might hear that now you have too strong low bass frequencies.

I agree that being able to control this is a good idea and continuous control is better than a switch. Even if you don't need it you can find the best position yourself. With a switch (or fixed filter) you never know if it could sound better. But I think this is more a psychological thing than a technical one.