Phil Jones Bass PJB 4B cabinet or EA CXL-112L for Doublin?

[jharms80439]

Hello everyone - I apologize in advance for the lengthy post...

I am a regular doubler on upright - both acoustic and EUB - and bass guitar. Music styles run the full spectrum of Jazz - Piano Bar duets with bass and piano, as well as old school jazz standards with horns, drummer and piano. I also play quite a bit of folk, gospel, as well as some progressive, funky and old school rock and roll on both upright and EBG.

I already own a Focus for use with my NS and my upright and regularly use it with my EBG. I like it's power and clarity of tone and am looking to reproduce my instrument's sound with a scaleable and acoustically accurate rig for very small jazz sessions and one that is scaleable for club use.

For my EBG I use the Focus alone or run it through a Tech 21 SansAmp ParaDI. I like that the SansAmp pedal is powered by the Phantom Power on the Focus and therefore really do not want to change out my head to bother with wall wart power supplies.

I've read all of the TB threads on the CXL-112L and the Wizzy. Either will fulfill my goals on upright/EUB, but I am concerned that the high-mids and the highs for EBG may be harsh with the CXL-112L and that the lows won't have enough punch.

In my research, I ran across the TB PBJ threads, but didn't find much on the 4B with an upright and nothing on the 4B with a Focus.

So....

Does anyone have any experience using the PJB 4B extension cabinet, powered by an A/I Focus or Coda with an upright or EUB?

How is the tone, presence and projection at lower volumes (small acoustic setting)? How about when the volume goes up (drummer, keys and two guitars) but is still not too loud? Will one cabinet hang when the volume goes up or will I need two? Is the PJB 4B's frequency response flat, scooped or humped in the mids? I've read on the PJB website and on TB that the mid frequency detail is incredible with the PBJ Suitcase and is even better with the 4B.

Any help that any of you can lend would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again, John.

[larry]

I did test drive the 4B recently, though not with a Focus. At the time I was using an SWR head.

FWIW, I thought the PJB cabinet sounded awesome. I was at Bass Central, which has no shortage of high-end gear to test out. The 4B sounded very natural and flattering to the DB. No mid-range honk like some cabs. I currently use Bergantino 1-12"s, which are also great. The 4B did not seem to handle as much volume as my Bergantino's, so I was not tempted to change. Hard to say until you've gigged with it, but that was my impression in the store.

I absolutley LOVE my Bergantinos and I would highly recommend them. The 4B sounded just as good to me (maybe even SLIGHTLY better), which is saying a lot. It just did not seem to me that they would still sound as good when pushed. Again, I'd need to gig with it to know for sure.

[jharms80439]

Larry, thanks for the mini compare! I will be in Orlando next week and plan to stop by Bass Centeral to make my compare there too, since no one stocks the 4B locally in Colorado.

I haven't tried the Bergs yet and will do that there too. I agree too that it is really hard to demo equipment in a store to know how it will really sound on a gig. Most times use on a gig is the only way to know if it cuts through in your situation.

FWIW, I recently sold my two Acme B2's that I had been using for EBG, EUB and ABG on loud stuff. I also recently sold my Aguilar GS 112, which was great for EBG but wasn't good for EUB or acoustic upright. The B2's were great for loud stuff, but at lower volumes, articulation in the upper mids was shy. I also have a Acme B1 and while it is great for low volume with my acoustic, but doesn' t get nearly loud enough with EUB or EBG.

Anyone else...?

[bolo]

I'd be interested to hear more about the 4B too. I'd also like to check out a Flightcase. Those upfiring drivers might be just the ticket some places ...

There is another thread here that describes the CXL and some other EA cabs in case you haven't seen it yet.

[jharms80439]

Bolo, the flight case from PJB seems to be a great practice amp and possibly a low volume upright amp.

I also checked out the thread you posted during my research, as well as the embedded thread too. Just more info noting the Wizzy and the CXL-112L are great sounding cabinets.

One more note though, I read in one of the articles on the PJB website that Phil Jones considers four of the 5" drivers to be equitable to a 10" driver. If my old geometry classes prove correct, a 10" driver has 15.7 square inches of area, while the 4 5" drivers has 31.4 square inches of area (not accounting for the angle of the cone differences). That seems like one 4x5" cabinet is like a 2x10" cabinet. I wonder if the 4B really sounds and acts like a 2x10 or if it acts more like a 1x12" cabinet.

Just more stuff to make you go hmmm...

[larry]

Originally Posted by jharms80439

If my old geometry classes prove correct, a 10" driver has 15.7 square inches of area, while the 4 5" drivers has 31.4 square inches of area (not accounting for the angle of the cone differences). That seems like one 4x5" cabinet is like a 2x10" cabinet. I wonder if the 4B really sounds and acts like a 2x10 or if it acts more like a 1x12" cabinet.

Just more stuff to make you go hmmm...

Double check your math:

Area = Pi * R * R

3.14 X 5 X 5 = 78.5

3.14 X 2.5 X 2.5 = 19.625, Which X's 4 = 78.5

[jharms80439]

Doh! You are correct, it is 78.5 square inches per cabinet for a 4x5 or a 1x10... pi*r-squared... Should've studied harder (or at least looked at my Excel formula more closely. )

It would be interesting to look at a sound pressure level radiation map to see if the net effect of the 4x5's have a larger radiation map when compared to a 1x10 or if it is smaller. Phil in one of the equipment review articles noted that because of the smaller driver, the lower frequency sound waves fall off quicker at distance than a larger driver. I'd speculate that the initial radiation pattern is larger, but he harmonic content has less power with the 4x5's than with a larger driver and carry less over distance.

Could that mean that within the radiation field the energy is higher, but at distance the volume is less when compared to different driver sizes? Hence a 4.5" driver would "sound" quieter at distance, where a 15" or a 18" driver would "sound" louder? Granted a 15" or 18" driver would have less transient attack and sound muddy because the mass cannot move quickly enough, not to mention distortion, etc.

Almost need a FFT plot of the SPL over distance to prove it and that is math WAY beyond me....

[RMacBass]

I know you didn't ask for any thoughts on the CXL-112L, but I have two CXL-112 cabs--one old and heavy, one newer and lighter. They're both killer for EBG and DB. In parallel, they're the cat's ass. As I've discovered over the years, they're also killer for amplifying keyboards, as emergency PA cabinets that dramatically outperform the PA being replaced (oops), and as of last night, plugged into a Line6 Pod X3 Live and used for a guitar/electric bass rig for a cover band.

If you're concerned about retaining the true character of your instruments, then don't run them through a Sansamp. However, if you realize that a Sansamp is just a specialized EQ, and you like the tone it creates, then EQ your way to a good sound, and rejoice in the fact that good cabinets like the CXL-112 can give you any tone you want, quiet or loud, provided you don't mind tweaking a bit.

Guitar players consider their amps to be part of their sound--even part of their instrument. Bass players often say they want to sound like their clean signal, until they sit in on someone else's rig that is EQed in a refreshingly different way than what they're used to.

(Sorry, I started out talking about the CXL-112, and meant to say that I like it a bunch for DB and BG, but got into a little over-tired "6am-still-wired-from-a-gig" rant. Truthfully, sometimes my DB sounds killer EQed, and sometimes I like to bypass the EQ altogether on my iAMP 350... It's the room, the instrument, it's the style being played, it's one's mood... k, I'm done.)

[tombowlus]

I definitely like both the 4B and the Flight Case very much. They are great for double bass, and also excellent for doubling. The CxL-112 is another great cab, but unfortunately, I don't have one on hand currently to compare to the 4B. In general, the CxL-112 had always struck me as extremely precise, very wide-ranging (deep and high), but with a slight leanness to the lower midrange. PJB cabs, in general, tend to be very full and articulate through the midrange, and the 4B has beautiful mids, IMHO.

Tom.

[jharms80439]

RMacBass, great comments on the CXL-112L. I've read a bunch of info on it and expect to test drive it and the 4B on Friday at Bass Central.

FWIW, I've only recently started using the SansAmp Para DI with electric bass. Normally, it goes directly into my A/I Focus, but in some situations, ultra clean tone on bass guitar wasn't cutting it. Even though my tone was great, at times didn't fit within the context of the original song or the music played. Quite a while back, I tried the SansAmp BDDI and didn't like it at all. I took a chance a few weeks ago on the Para DI and have been really pleased with it. Again, my use with the pedal is limited to only a series of songs and only with bass guitar. My acoustic is directly from the Realist pickup to the Focus. EUB is again directly into the Focus with just a touch of reverb from the Focus 2R to add some acoustic girth...

BTW, I will post my observations from Bass Central this weekend...

[jharms80439]

Tom,

Thank you for your input too. Your post speaks directly to my concern with using the CXL-112L for upright. The Focus EQ is really subtle and I'd like to have the best cabinet available without EQing a cabinet it to my needs and instead use the Focus EQ to help compensate for uneven rooms.

FWIW, I've also read all of the Wizzy review on TB and the PJB stuff seems similar in concept, i.e. no tweeter. Phil lists the frequency response of the 5" drivers as 25hz to ~15KHz. I expect that the response across the frequency spectrum to be much smoother than even modern three way speaker designs, even though PJB doesn't list frequency response for the 4B on his website.

BTW, when you played the 4B, did you play it with an upright? Also, when you played it, did you notice that (tonally) whether there were any humps or bumps in the midrange? Lastly, did you play it with the Suitcase or with a separate head?

While I know the the CXL-112L and the 4B are excellent cabinets and I won't be displeased with either cabinet, mid-frequencies are the happening space on an upright and better (tighter, fuller, more articulate maybe?) mids are what I am looking for in a cabinet.

I expect that I will know on Friday at Bass Central after the test drive... Again, I will post my experiences after I have tested both cabinets this weekend.

One more thing, I too recently looked at the Flightcase. Seems that it may displace the GK M150 for many upright players. The upward firing drivers for the player and the forward firing drivers for the audience may just be the ticket for small settings. The price is pretty steep, though I can only imagine how nice it would be to walk in with my NS in one hand and carry the Flightcase in the other. Winter playing in Colorado may never be the same...

John

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by jharms80439

Tom,
FWIW, I've also read all of the Wizzy review on TB and the PJB stuff seems similar in concept, i.e. no tweeter. Phil lists the frequency response of the 5" drivers as 25hz to ~15KHz. I expect that the response across the frequency spectrum to be much smoother than even modern three way speaker designs, even though PJB doesn't list frequency response for the 4B on his website.

The manner in which Phil's cabs cover the spectrum is really amazing. The highs are just as bright as you could want, but never thin or harsh. The lows, go as low as you could want (with proper amplification - some amps don't seem to make the low end of my PJB cabs bloom, though I have not developed a rule of thumb for which ones will work great and which don't, other than that tube amps always seem to go well with PJB cabs), but the lows also have this incredible attack to the note. I've never heard low end that has such a defined start to the notes. I consider this a very good thing. Think of how it sounds when you are sitting close to a grand piano being played hard.

BTW, when you played the 4B, did you play it with an upright? Also, when you played it, did you notice that (tonally) whether there were any humps or bumps in the midrange? Lastly, did you play it with the Suitcase or with a separate head?

I have used both the Suitcase and other heads/amps with the 4B. It is not as 'amp sensitive' as my larger PJB cabs. I don't really hear any bumps in the mids, though I would say there is a broad midrange push. The complexity and texture of the mids are perhaps my favorite sonic characteristic with regard to the 4B.

One more thing, I too recently looked at the Flightcase. Seems that it may displace the GK M150 for many upright players. The upward firing drivers for the player and the forward firing drivers for the audience may just be the ticket for small settings. The price is pretty steep, though I can only imagine how nice it would be to walk in with my NS in one hand and carry the Flightcase in the other. Winter playing in Colorado may never be the same...

John

IMHO, the Flight Case should be a 'must hear' item for anyone looking for a compact URB amplification rig.

I should add, however, that the CxL-112 is a killer cab in its own right, and that while I had expected the somewhat leaner mids to not sound as good on upright as that cab does on electric, in actual use, it was pretty nice on upright. It had a bit more finger noise than some other cabs I have tried, but for some reason, it came across as a 'bonus', and not a detraction.

The M-line Wizzy and Wizzy 10 should definitely also be on your radar screen.

Tom.

[macmrkt]

Originally Posted by tombowlus

...but the lows also have this incredible attack to the note. I've never heard low end that has such a defined start to the notes. I consider this a very good thing. Think of how it sounds when you are sitting close to a grand piano being played hard. .

Ah yes...the 'leading edge' concept. Back in my audiophile days, this was widely discussed as the reason why certain speakers delivered the goods better than others. If I remember correctly, Linn and other UK derived companies were keen on it. Again, with foggy memory, I think there was something about if you got the leading edge of a sound recognized by our ear/brain properly, the nuance and emotional intent came easier. No surprise that PJB does this as they design some of the 'best' home and studio monitors.

[tastemybass]

Originally Posted by macmrkt

Ah yes...the 'leading edge' concept. Back in my audiophile days, this was widely discussed as the reason why certain speakers delivered the goods better than others. If I remember correctly, Linn and other UK derived companies were keen on it. Again, with foggy memory, I think there was something about if you got the leading edge of a sound recognized by our ear/brain properly, the nuance and emotional intent came easier. No surprise that PJB does this as they design some of the 'best' home and studio monitors.

As did EA back in the early days. If I remember correctly they worked with John Curl and Saul Marantz, building speaker cabs, during the Lineage period

[macmrkt]

...and that's quite good company to be in!

[jharms80439]

All,

Well it took me a bit longer to gather my comparison notes together to post this.

When comparing the 4B and the CXL, I used my Chinese plywood upright with a Realist, a NSD CR4M, a Conklin GTBD-7 with flatwounds and a Fender P with a DiMarzio Split-P Pickup and a piezo bridge. Uprights were run direct to an Acoustic Image Focus IIR and electrics were run through a SansAmp Para DI.

4B Electrics - Initial impression with the focus and the 4B was stellar mids, smooth transition across the frequency range. Seemed a bit boosted in the upper mids and seemed really bass shy when run flat. With the bass control on the focus, Sansamp or on the basses slightly boosted, the bass was there, but not ever wooly or overwhelming. What I heard was still a little bass shy, but still an "accurate" and "uncolored" sound. With my 7 string, notes popped to the point that it hurt my ears - can you say hearing damage?... Upper mids and high highs were never brittle and in some ways it reminded me of a Wizzy that I tried a while back, just REALLY loud. Generally when running my basses through this system, it was also quieter - read that as dead silent - than any system I have played through before.

4B Uprights - Playing my NS through the 4B really made me realize why I'm selling it. I'm a former electric player that has fully transitioned to being an acoustic upright bass player and has electric basses as backups in case something happens to my uprights. The NS sounded great, but it sounded more like a big fretless bass guitar than an acoustic upright. When playing my upright through the 4B, I was BLOWN away with the girth of the Arco sound - rich, full and articulate. Interesting that with the 4B, much of what I played in thumb position didn't pop and seemed slightly muted. In the lower ranges - 1/2, first and second position and without any bass boosted at all, the bass sound was very full, almost to the point of being wooly - probably a trait of the Realist. Pizz was equally full and uncolored and brutally accurate. I hear where my technique is poor and my intonation bad - more than with the CXL or any cabinet that I've ever owned. What blew me away while playing my upright was how fast the notes came out of the 4B. The volume never ran away from me, but it quickly became incredibly loud.

CXL Electrics - Initial impression was that there was much more air push on this cabinet. Lows are felt and heard, unlike the 4B, where they are mainly heard. Frequency transition was less smooth than the 4B and seemed a very little bit scooped in the low mids and humped in the high mids. Highs wide open were accurate but a bit hissy and seemed a bit brittle after the 4B. Low frequencies killed though. The CXL seemed to be as articulate as the 4B and a very slight bit more colored. Not as colored as my Aguilar, but SLIGHTLY more color than the 4B. For example, notes that leapt out on the 4B were mixed or muddied on the CXL. Alternatively, low electric bass notes on the CXL were felt FAR more than on the 4B. Turning the attenuator down on the CXL got rid of the subtle brittleness that I experienced with roundwounds on my Precision. Slap was nice and expressive, but the tone needed to be altered with my Sansamp to be acceptable. Again, VERY accurate cabinet and well suited to electric. It is an uncolored cabinet, but a bit more color than the 4B. Overall impression was excellent lows, impressive mids, but less than stellar highs.

CXL Uprights - My NSD again sounded like a big fretless - don't get me wrong, that is what the NS Design CR4M sounds like. So far it is still the absolute best as a travel bass and I still like it, but an acoustic upright, it ain't. Anyway, back on track... Fast runs that didn't allow the note to sound out were full. Most sounds while crisp, were more wooley (less articulate), than the 4B. Longer or sustained Pizz notes played very well and projected exceptionally well. Bass response is KILLER - again, I felt the notes as well as heard them. Arco tone on the NSD was accurate and what I expected out of other similar systems. Again, this is on an electric upright and the fullness of an acoustic upright is not there and as expected, it shouldn't be. My acoustic upright had all of the fullness and richness that I expected, except more of it. When playing Arco at thumb position or higher, the highs were good, but not great. Lows and mids were outstanding and bordered on killer. Full, rich and sweet overtones were there for the asking. Bluegrass slap though had a brittleness to the highs that I didn't like. Again, turning the tweeter down helped bring the harshness under control, but didn't kill it.

So what did I buy? A PJB 4B...

Why...?

On acoustic upright, the mids and highs were far better on the 4B than on the CXL. While the lows were shy when run flat on the 4B, they could be boosted slightly to increase their presence. What really turned me off on the CXL with the upright was the highs. Even with the attenuator turned down, it didn't match the sweetness of the mids and highs on the 4B.

On electric, the CXL shined far brighter than the 4B in the lows. As I've noted above, the CXL has extended lows that are felt and heard, while the 4B really has lows that are heard. Mids and highs for slap and pop were good on the CXL and excellent on the 4B.

Is the CXL an outstanding cabinet?... Sure! Probably, better than outstanding, but so is the 4B. In truth, the 4B sounds like a less bassy, more accurate Wizzy, that handles transients incredibly fast for electric bass.

So while YMMV and IMHO, I will probably always have a PA for loud stuff, it is the lower volume/quiet stuff that the 4B excels at, in it's accurate representation of the input.

So while the cash has been spent, I'll let you know how I feel in a month or two after the newness wears off.

Thanks again for everyone's input and PM's on choices. Talkbass again comes through as a community dedicated to helping others make intelligent choices and receive excellent feedback on available options.

Cheers,

John

[bolo]

Originally Posted by jharms80439

Bolo, the flight case from PJB seems to be a great practice amp and possibly a low volume upright amp.

Nice job on that write up.

I was wondering ... I know the Flightcase is a 150 watt amp. And I know the four drivers in the 4B are all in the same vertical plane, while the Flightcase is two front- and two up-firing. But it's still four of those small drivers in one box. Do you think the (cab portion of the) Flightcase and the 4B sound quite different as a result, or perhaps sound somewhat similar?

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by bolo

Nice job on that write up.

+1 Great job!

I was wondering ... I know the Flightcase is a 150 watt amp. And I know the four drivers in the 4B are all in the same vertical plane, while the Flightcase is two front- and two up-firing. But it's still four of those small drivers in one box. Do you think the (cab portion of the) Flightcase and the 4B sound quite different as a result, or perhaps sound somewhat similar?

The drivers in the Flight Case BG-150 employ neodymium drivers. The Suitcase and 4B and 4B are ceramic.

And, FWIW, Phil debuted the new 'Super' Flight Case BG-300 at NAMM. It has twice the power (300w) and two more drivers.



Tom.

[clink]

I just played through the PJ Briefcase, Flightcase and Suitcase at a local dealer. They literally hit his door today. With no DB at hand I used a fretless slab and was very impressed with all three amps.
After a few minutes, a guy brought his DB in to check the amps out. Both of the bigger amps sounded superb with his bass; loud, warm and transparent.
I think he's buying the suitcase, but of the three, I'd choose the Flightcase for portability. The little one is just too small to be much help for most gigs.

[jharms80439]

Tom, did PJB have a timeframe release date for the BG-300?