Powered Monitors anyone?

twodinners · #1 04-02-2007, 04:53 PM

Hi,

I'm pretty new to gigging with my upright and have been using my SWR W'man 10 with overall pretty depressing results.

It's upsetting to work so hard on your acoustic tone, just to end up with some very dull thuds coming out.

My story is I always prefer to play direct to the PA, just sounds heaps better to me.

Is there any mileage in just using a dedicated powered monitor or pa speaker, i.e. Yamaha MSR series or small PAs?

Has anyone here used one?

Many thanks, first post to the DB forum.

Kevin

Jason Hollar · #2 04-02-2007, 06:51 PM

Kevin,

Welcome aboard.

Here is a post I started a while back...and there are several more before that:

Powered PA cabs for DB

Sounds like you need a preamp to deal with your WM10...but I advise you not to sell it -- it's a nice little cube amp for very quiet gigs.

I'm using a JBL Eon 15 G2...but only for mic'ing the bass. Note: I only do this on society gigs where I have to schlepp a PA speaker for vocalists, announcements, etc. Otherwise I've been using SWR gear for years and am currently trying a Mesa Walkabout Scout for my Barbera equipped DB.

You'll find there are a ton of better amp choices to consider. You've come to the right place!

I didn't like the Yamahas or Makies as much as the JBL.

Good luck!

Jason

twodinners · #3 04-03-2007, 04:01 AM

Jason,

Thanks for the reply and pointing me to the thread that pretty much covers my queries.

I am using a Realist with a Sadowsky pre-amp (not that the Realist really needs it).

I too would like to fulfill the need for small pa duties and bass reinforcement in one go and wonder whether a Yamaha Stagepas 300 would do it?

Or perhaps the one 12'' powered monitor with a couple of inputs would do?

I just need to be careful that I don't end up with something that's bigger, heavier and more complicated than I need.

Thanks again,

Kevin

bad5x8 · #4 04-03-2007, 06:39 AM

Hey,
What pickup are you using? I'm having great luck with my SWR WM10 and my bassmax pick up. I have a ply bass so the bassmax works well with it, and the hot signal works great with any amp. The WM10 sounds a lot louder than it should in my book.
Carvin has a few powered PA speakers.
good luck finding something.
Blake

Dr.Ken · #5 04-03-2007, 07:28 AM

I have the Yamaha Stagepas 300 (as well as a couple of powered Yamaha MSR100s as monitors). I can't say enough good about them. For small gigs, the work great and have an impressive sound for such small speakers. If you look at the frequency response of the Yamahas, they actually can handle lower frequencies than the bigger JBLs or even Mackies.

I have done a couple of shows where space was tight, so I ran Fishman Full Circle - Fishman Platinum ProEq - Stagepas 300 input. I was also amplifying a couple of acoustic guitars and vocals through the Stagepas at the same time (and 1 MSR100 for a monitor). In a small situation like that, worked great and had good overall tone (much better than the old EB amps I was also trying out).

I was considering getting a single Yamaha MSR400 (300w total, 400W burst) for larger venues and to be a stand alone for the bass, but have decided against it. I am now leaning towards picking up an AI Coda and just being done with the quest. Hope that helps.

- Ken

twodinners · #6 04-03-2007, 07:41 AM

Blake,

Thanks, I have a 1920 German carved swell back, old spirocores and am using a David Gage Realist transducer ('cos Christian McBride and John Patitucci told me to). I go via a Sadowsky Pre-amp.

I guess it's a case of working on it and trying things out.

It taken me a lifetime to get a sound on electric, never mind the upright with many more variables.

Ho hum, back to practice.

Kevin

twodinners · #7 04-03-2007, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Ken

I have the Yamaha Stagepas 300 (as well as a couple of powered Yamaha MSR100s as monitors). I can't say enough good about them.
- Ken

Thanks Ken,

My Piano playing buddy has the Stagepas 300 and he sounds great (hey I'll just turn up and say I forgot my amp and plug into the pa). Instinctively there always seems to be something about pa amps that has always sounded better to me than dedicated bass amps, it's as if they are always trying to solve a problem and guessing what makes bass sound good, rather than having a good flat non colouring response with plenty of headroom.

Less knobs to twiddle also works for me.

Kevin

Michael Case · #8 04-03-2007, 10:22 AM

I think SWRs are essentially EB amps and they are voiced for EB. I use an SWR workingman's 12 at my school, it takes a lot of tweaking to get that midrangy twang out. I think you hit the nail on the head with the PA speaker, they are flat response and it better reflects what you put into it than an amp voiced for EB. The best solution I've found is running an pre amp into the effects loop of the SWR, this will bypass the SWR pre amp. With the right pre amp it can give you a pretty decent sound.

twodinners · #9 04-03-2007, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Case

... The best solution I've found is running an pre amp into the effects loop of the SWR, this will bypass the SWR pre amp. With the right pre amp it can give you a pretty decent sound.

Thanks,

I got very excited when I heard you could bypass the SWR eq by going into the effects loop... tried it, got nothing out.

Now i'm very probably being a bit dim but all you do is plug into the effects return yes? Does anyone actually know if this works with WM10, they don't have a different chain internally do they?

Cheers, and thanks all for the help/advice,

Kevin

Michael Case · #10 04-03-2007, 12:14 PM

I've done it with the WM 12 and 15, you'll need a separate pre amp to do this. You also have to use the master volume and the effects loop volume on the amp itself.

Jason Hollar · #11 04-03-2007, 02:15 PM

It's funny how much different amp brands vary in sound.

I play an SWR WM 12 during my university faculty concerts and I absoultely hate the sound with DB. Very bland.

During lessons on EB it sounds killer. Very full.

That being said, my DB sounds fab through other "regular" bass amps including my SWR Bass 350 head and 2x10 Goliath as well as my Eden Nav pre and new Mesa Walkabout Scout.

All of the PA speaker enclosures I tried sounded very flat and bland...not unlike the WM 12. However, the JBL Eon G2 had a substantial amount of low and hi end in addition to gobs of power. I still need a pre for it to sound good with a pickup though...usually my Boss Bass EQ pedal or Aguilar DB924 (not unlike the Sadowski, I think)

One of the main reasons I chose this speaker was for its input configuration. One xlr mic in and two 1/4" line level ins plus 2 band EQ (lo & hi).

Drawbacks? Speaker is heavy and awkward to carry.

Benefits? Speaker kicks major @ss and sounds killer with vocals, etc...the main reason I needed a PA speaker. It also rules when you mic the bass or run a CD player through on break.

You also might need some gizmos to make it all work together like a compact mixer, mic preamp, or active direct box.

This is not my easy-in easy-out jazz rig, its my compact society gig PA system that has extra benefits for the DB!

Good luck, would love to hear what you end up with.

twodinners · #12 04-03-2007, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Hollar

Good luck, would love to hear what you end up with.

Jason,

Thanks loads for your time and advice. I am reminded though that in search of tone one must go back to the source and I am today made very aware of this. If I can be a little graphic...

I ended up recently with a big blister on blister on my index right hand and when they had sorted themselves out and peeled away I was left with some really twanging kind of sound from that finger, now usually the two plucking fingers sound fairly equal with a pleasant swinging difference in tone. This kind of ridge I have at the moment on my index almost give a kind of plectrum tone, lots of overtones and no thud.

What hope electronics?

It's all in the hands, really.

Kevin

Gintaras · #13 04-03-2007, 09:23 PM

I was planning to get rid of my WM10 and ran into a deal for an Eminence DeltaLite II 10" speaker. What a difference it made in tone and clarity. Also made the amp about 5 or 6 lbs lighter. I also use a Yamaha NE-1 with my fretless basses and a Sansamp BDDI with my fretted basses. I have no intention of getting rid of the WM10 after that mod!!!!

Michael Case · #14 04-03-2007, 09:47 PM

twodinners,

Take any emery board (nail file) and file down the ridge in you finger. Also use a little lotion, as the ridge levels out, you'll start getting a good thump with your fingers again.

Good luck,
Mike

twodinners · #15 04-03-2007, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Case

twodinners,

Take any emery board (nail file) and file down the ridge in you finger. Also use a little lotion, as the ridge levels out, you'll start getting a good thump with your fingers again.

Good luck,
Mike

Thanks Mike,

My wife enjoys an afternoon at the nail salon, do you think they could do me too, together with a hand massage.

Hey, a wet shave, shoulder rub and complete bass players make over.

We have a franchise thing going here?

Saying that, I once had a hand massage in Amsterdam that was lovely (no, really).

Regards,

Kevin

noelito · #16 04-06-2007, 10:30 AM

I like going through the pa as the sound is, shall i say uncomplicated.i'm usually at the back so those at the front get to to hear the sound best from the monitors. So yes i need to buy my own powered monitor and link it to the others so i can hear myself clearer. thats why i talked about in ear monitoring some time back.

I don't know what a stagepas 300 is could someone explain. Thanks.
n

twodinners · #17 04-13-2007, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noelito

I don't know what a stagepas 300 is could someone explain. Thanks.
n

noelito,

The Yamaha Stagepas 300 is a small compact pa, that is, a pair of speakers and a powered mixer for a very reasonable price.

I tried one out yesterday at keyboard playing friends place and thought it sounded lovely with more than enough power for my needs. I love the idea that with a pair of speakers I can get a nice spread of sound on stage, either using it as a conventional set up or by using one of the speakers as a monitor for the drummer or myself.

I can now also take a mic along have the combination of piezo and mic and also 'big up' the band at every opportunity.

It is gloriously simple in operation with basic eq and a not very convincing reverb.

Right up my street,

I'll let on with real world gig results.

Kevin

noelito · #18 04-15-2007, 05:08 PM

kevin
I read up about stagepas, thanks a lot. Does having a monitor out jack mean you can keep the volume through one speaker lower (for monitoring yourself) and the other at a higher volume pointed obviously at the audience. if not, surely
you will get feed back especially from a db if volume levels are the same?
best noelito

twodinners · #19 04-15-2007, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noelito

kevin
I read up about stagepas, thanks a lot. Does having a monitor out jack mean you can keep the volume through one speaker lower (for monitoring yourself) and the other at a higher volume pointed obviously at the audience. if not, surely
you will get feed back especially from a db if volume levels are the same?
best noelito

noelito,

Good point, I don't think there is any kind of pan control which would allow you to alter the relative outputs, left and right, and although there are monitor outputs I don't know if these would drive a passive speaker. Then again you could buy a powered monitor and use that, but isn't that where we came in?

Best news is I have just got back from a small piano duo gig where we both went through a stagepas 300 system. The piano sounded lovely as always and the bass was right there, really nice, didn't fudge up the sound at all and had a very user friendly full range supportive kind of sound. I'm really impressed and am very optimistic that I've found a useful solution and for a budget price, how often does that happen?

And... as a stand alone bass rig, you've got extra channels to run a mic and piezo, and If it's your thing, stereo channels for those whizzy effects processors we all keep in the cupboard.

And... get an SM58 and sing along to your arco solos!

Am I getting carried away?

Regards,

Kevin

noelito · #20 04-16-2007, 04:35 PM

glad the stagepas fits the bill. I suppose the next stage up would be the bose pas system but that is really expensive.

So yes, it looks like a powered monitor is the way to go. I really needed one last saturday for a gig, couldn't hear myself very well above the saxes and piano, it was HARD work!. I tried to use a 30 watt cheap combo amp as a monitor by taking a lead from the mixer to the input but it didn't work. (It was a 6 track Sony mixer with facility for recording)
n