Purpose of an amp

[Marc Piane]

I got to thinking about this question because of a comment from Uncle Toad in the 'Braindump' thread. Here's the quote, then I'll give my thoughts.

"Although I'd also like to say that in those moments when I can actually hear mostly my bass on the gig, my amp acts as a low end boost in the room more than something that is "heard".

In fact the barmaid on the weds gig last week mentioned she thought it was perfect that I played an acoustic bass without an amp in that little place as anything amplified would be to much.

I didn't feel the need to mention that I was using one."

I go back and forth about whether to even take DB gigs where tons of amplification is required. I play porkchop as well and have a big amp for jobbing gigs. Bottom line, I am in 100% agreement with this statement. I use a GK MB150S. It is not the most hifi of bass amps but in my travels it is the most portable and it sounds pretty good.

In my mind the purpose of amplification is the support your acoustic sound not replace it.

Will I stop taking gigs where I have to really turn up. No. My landlord (and wife) could care less about my amplification philosophy. I have found though that backing off on the amp makes the people around you play differently and changes your function in the group slightly.

I'm really just thinking out loud here. I love to hear other peoples takes on the 'PURPOSE OF AN AMP'.

[peterpalmieri]

I couldn't agree more...We as TBers tend to over anaylze and pick apart evey aspect of our equipment when in real life it is much more simple.

In my experiences musicians in most styles and especially true with drummers they want to hear bass. If they don't they will tend to adjust accordingly.

In my club date band where I play BG I tend to set the tone for dynamics and overall playing level. It starts out by the immediate appearance of my bass rig before we even check levels.

This translates to DB if you show with no amp the drummer will most likely make sure his brushes are at least close by? Allowing to to use your instrument mostly acoustically....

[Uncletoad]

The reality for me is I use the amp in different ways on different gigs. It's totally context dependant. On my small trio gig on Wednesdays I use it mostly as described in the quote (flattered I must admit). On those gigs it is a support or an underpinning. Friday I played in a huge room with a rock band and a full PA with subs and monitors and all kinds of racket. It became a stage monitor for me and drummer boy. Other gigs I need to fill up a larger room with little or no PA support so it becomes a high volume bass rig.

Some gigs start one way and end up another.

Originally Posted by phalanges

In my mind the purpose of amplification is the support your acoustic sound not replace it.

I agree totally. The most important thing for me to remember on the gig is that I'm playing my ACOUSTIC Double Bass. As such I play in the shadow of all those that have played it before me, amplified or not.

If I start playing it like a Fender I'd rather pick that bass up and use it instead.

I'm just not really in the space for the latter very much these days.

[Marcus Johnson]

The purpose of the amp is very simple; it's there to force people to talk louder during the bass solos.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by fingers

I go back and forth about whether to even take DB gigs where tons of amplification is required. I play porkchop as well and have a big amp for jobbing gigs. Bottom line, I am in 100% agreement with this statement. I use a GK MB150S. It is not the most hifi of bass amps but in my travels it is the most portable and it sounds pretty good.

In my mind the purpose of amplification is the support your acoustic sound not replace it.

PURPOSE OF AN AMP'.[/quote]

Fingers,
From my humble perspective, if as most of us believe, your actual sound comes from your hands and instrument then, what we are saying is true. I have a working theroy that the louder the bass amp gets, the less it sounds like the instrument and the more it sounds like a artifical approximation, but I can't actually prove that one. What eventually IMHO happens is that no matter what amp rig you are using, if the sound level exceeds the ability of the system to control all the unusable artifacts that a Acoustic Bass puts out, then it's a total wash.
The best players realize this and that's why you usually don't see
Double Bassists lugging around a big onstage amp. They let the mains do the talking while they do the walking and monitor it througn a reasonably sized amp or in a lot of cases, no amp at all.

Ric

PS. Yes Christian Mc Bride did have a Glockenklang the last
time I saw him. So there are varations, aren't there?

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

The purpose of the amp is very simple; it's there to force people to talk louder during the bass solos.

The corollary of that is to play so loud the listener can't talk loud enough to tell the person next to them how much you suck.

[Marc Piane]

I have heard some of the greats (Ron Carter, Richard Davis) refer to their acoustic sound (unamped) and their amplified sound as two different animals.

[natbers78]

To me, the purpose of an amplifier is just that...a piece of electronic equipment that will faithfully and pleasingly reproduce the sound of me playing my bass at higher volume when needed. I think we can all agree on the fact that that is why we're all on a constant mission to find a decent rig. Few and far between are the people that actually care what my bass sounds like. I can accept that. However...the only people that absolutely have to listen to me all night are my fellow musicians and myself. Audience members come and go, and it is highly unlikely that they are ruminating on how good my bass sounded when they go to bed that night. I consider it part of my job as a bass player to not have an ugly sound, which is achieved through many things...including choosing the right amp for your bass. With any luck, this leaves everybody with warm fuzzies: Me: happy with sound, Wife: happy I'm working, Landlord: happy he's getting paid, Band: happy that I contributed to the "group dynamic".

[musicman5string]

The only thing I can add to this is something Dave Holland told me regarding volume coming off an amp:

"To me there's something acoustically correct when the band gets loud that the bass becomes quieter. Personally I just leave my amp's volume where I'd like it when soloing and then work around that."

I've tried to use this concept, but it also seems to me that the bass is quieter when soloing, especially if you use thumb position alot, which I guess I do. So therefore the band needs to come down during the bass solos, which to me is a nice dynamic. Otherwise my walking lines would be overly loud.

[bassist1962]

Whether using BG or DB, I use the amp as a stage monitor for the bass. I let the soundman out front determine how I should fit in the mix. I feel the same way about pickups. I use a pickup as a stronger signal to the board than a mic, not as a means to plug into a pedalboard and use some effect that shouldn't be used for acoustic instruments anyway. Sorry to get off track a bit, just my little rant.

[fdeck]

I attempt a compromise approach -- a balance between the faithful acoustic tone and whatever works for the band and room. Admittedly, a magnetic pickup often fills that bill. Lately I have begun to focus on making sure that my tone is audible throughout the band and audience, after working with a pianist who had some hearing problems. During a gig, he said: "Can you turn your speaker towards me so I can hear it?" Then I realized that a highly directional speaker coverage is anything but faithful to how an unplugged bass behaves.

[Mike Goodbar]

Occasionally, a sound-man wannabe will come up to me and tell me that I should turn up, that my bass is "too low in the mix." (Mix? What mix?)

If I stop playing and nobody notices, then I know my amp's volume is too soft.

[Adrian Cho]

There is no simple answer to this question. It totally depends on the situation including the style of music, the ensemble, the room and so forth. I've played in huge rooms where there were a thousand or so people eating dinner and we relied mostly on the P.A. to be heard but we still used all our own amps to create a localised sound for people who happened to come up closer and for our own monitoring purposes. Even though monitors are usually supplied at that place, I never use them as I'd much prefer to get the sound I hear from my amp. In other cases I've been in rooms that big and there was no P.A. so I had my amp cranked. And yes lots of other situations where the amp is used mostly just for low end boost.

[pdbass]

Originally Posted by peterpalmieri

if you show with no amp the drummer will most likely make sure his brushes are at least close by? Allowing to to use your instrument mostly acoustically....

I don't know where you live, but if you showed up without an amp on a gig here, you'd be sent right back home to get one (or someone with one would get a phone call), dig? To me, an amp's function is simple: to allow you to be heard. Period. Most of us would love to be able to have every nuance and resonance heard by everyone in the venue--to have that "practice room" sound happen for everyone listening. The REALITY is, and I'm sure of this, is that the drummer wants to be able to hear quarter notes (or whatever applies as RHYTHM), the pianist wants to hear the ROOT of the chord, and the soloist (generally) wants to hear a combination of the 2. I've had gigs where the bass' amplified sound was just DREADFUL to me. So much so that it affected the way I played--but for the other musicians what mattered was hearing my NOTES and my TIME above all else. I will always strive for great tone on a gig--always--but being heard by everyone (including ME) is always my first priority (and would tend to think everyone else's first priority, as well). Listen to the GREAT bassists that played unamplified years ago and went to amplification: Ray Brown, Ron Carter, Dave Holland, Eddie Gomez, among countless others. Very different sounds--strong fundamental. The note is always there.

It would also seem to me that there are a variety of ways to use an amp with a DB, as well. Some of us might have Stanley Clarke action, whereas the amp would function to give the bass any and all amplification (mostly AMP voice). Some of us (like myself) might find that the amp has another, seperate voice from the DB that, when combined with the bass, and voiced in a different way, gives a clear, audible sound (BASS+AMP voice). Some of us like to use the amp to give the instrument just a little 'bump' of volume and low-end presence when we need it (mostly BASS voice). I really do think that it all depends on the situation, the bass, and the player. (There should be an emoticon for that). In MY experience, I think everyone wants to hear that 'F' on the bottom of the F7 chord FIRST and FOREMOST. Everything else is 'on me' so to speak. Quality of tone is quite important, paramount, in fact, but I played with Stanley Turrentine for 2 almost 2 years and if he couldn't hear the note, there was a problem. Just my experience. . . . would love to hear some others!

[Chris Fitzgerald]

The purpose of an amp is to allow the bass to be heard in the context of the overall volume of the music. Should musicians often be more sensitive to volume/balance issues? Sure. Should you get as big and round an acoustic sound as possible? Of course. With that said, if a player decides to spend the time and energy to learn what kind of mics, amps and pickups will most faithfully reproduce that natural acoustic sound, then the purpose of an amp is more or less to reproduce the natural sound of the bass in as much as such a thing is possible. Headroom is important, as is a configuration which minimizes coloring the sound.

Beyond that, the other purpose for me is for use as an intonation monitor in a live setting. I find that one of the most frustrating things about playing the DB is that the player is not in the best position to hear the overall sound of the midrange (what I consider "intonating") frequencies. When I have an amp, I always keep it up close to my ears so that I can hear pitch quickly; the other advantage to doing this is that it allows me to hear my own sound as more present in the mix to my own ears while not overwhelming the mix for everyone else.

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by pdbass

I don't know where you live, but if you showed up without an amp on a gig here, you'd be sent right back home to get one (or someone with one would get a phone call), dig? To me, an amp's function is simple: to allow you to be heard. Period.

I think it depends greatly on locale. My experience is similar to yours. Jazz gets played loud out here in the sticks. If I show up late to set up for an "acoustic" gig, I have to machete my way through a jungle of mike stands, cables, mains, monitors, and so forth. A magnetic pickup is not just a convenience, but a survival tool.

Why? I don't know, but I can try to guess. One problem is electric keyboards. Another is the low cost of space, which applies to housing, transportation, and venues. The lower cost of living, in turn, liberates disposable income to be spent on more powerful gear.

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Beyond that, the other purpose for me is for use as an intonation monitor in a live setting. I find that one of the most frustrating things about playing the DB is that the player is not in the best position to hear the overall sound of the midrange (what I consider "intonating") frequencies. When I have an amp, I always keep it up close to my ears so that I can hear pitch quickly; the other advantage to doing this is that it allows me to hear my own sound as more present in the mix to my own ears while not overwhelming the mix for everyone else.

+1

I find that being able to hear the mids clearly actually makes it less fatiguing and more fun to play. Having been convinced of the basic physics by Bill Fitzmaurice and the other experts on the EB forum, I added a cone midrange to my system. So far it seems to make a big difference in the audibility of my tone, and also makes my tone less sensitive to speaker placement issues.

When I get this assembled into a single unit, instead of a hodgepodge of separate boxes, I will write up the plans for everybody.

[Marc Piane]

I should say first that I should have phrased my original subject heading as 'The Purpose of Amplifying the Double Bass'. I guess I am thinking more about the function of amplifying an acoustic instrument no matter how it is done.

I got to thinking about this because of Tio Toad's comment but also because of an interview I read with Brandford. Most of the time, when they play live there are no amps on stage and also no monitors. He's big into jazz being acoustic music. There is pa involved but mains only meaning it just takes what is happening on stage and makes it louder for the audience.

At my gig Sunday I tried something. I should mention that the leader is a huge Branford fan. I have a Realist and a K&K mic on my bass. I turned the pickup almost totally off. I was using about 90% mic. I then balanced it with the acoustic sound of my bass so both were present in my ears. Support.

I noticed two things.

One, the band compensated. All the guys are seasoned pros and great listeners. Nobody asked me to turn up. They adjusted.

Second, my walking and solos were different. When you are turned up you don't pull the strings as hard and consequently can execute more technically challenging things. I think that the acoustic sound of the bass is lost a bit though. I pulled harder and was tired at the end of the evening but was very pleased with the overall results. Even Dave Holland, who has one of my favorite live tones, got about the same sound out of a Czech-Ease as his French bass.

I am not suggesting one way being better than the other. I just go back and forth on the function of amplification.

If you want to hear the results you can go the my website and click 'Videos'. There are two tunes that were recorded Sunday. I'd be interested in hearing what people think specifically of the sound. I think the camera did a fairly good job of picking things up though the drummer was a little closer than I was. M-->

[bolo]

Originally Posted by fingers

At my gig Sunday I tried something. I should mention that the leader is a huge Branford fan. I have a Realist and a K&K mic on my bass. I turned the pickup almost totally off. I was using about 90% mic. I then balanced it with the acoustic sound of my bass so both were present in my ears. Support.

I noticed two things.

One, the band compensated. All the guys are seasoned pros and great listeners. Nobody asked me to turn up. They adjusted.

Second, my walking and solos were different. When you are turned up you don't pull the strings as hard and consequently can execute more technically challenging things. I think that the acoustic sound of the bass is lost a bit though. I pulled harder and was tired at the end of the evening but was very pleased with the overall results.

Marc, this is cool and I agree with your points. I posted something like this recently in another thread, but now I can't find it.

Anyway, I had a similar discussion with a vibes player a while back. He used to run his vibes through an amp, but doesn't any more. Since he is the band leader, he can afford to say "You either match my acoustic volume, or you're out."

We agreed that at least in our cases we both simply pull the notes out differently when amped, both on vibes and DB. It's good to hear someone else like you concur. And we both preferred the way our instruments sound when we pull unamped.

And just like you said, I am not saying one way is 'better' than the other. Just that I think I am cognizant of the differences, esp. in right hand technique for me, and that I try to leverage or utilize those differences tastefully and appropriately depending on the setting, and what the leader is striving for.

[bassist1962]

This I feel Is the irony of the bass as a string instrument. Fender designed a potrable louder bass to help with being heard above horns and the like. Since then people have tried to 'improve' it's sound. The portability went away as amps got bigger, yet everybody stll seems to compare the BG to the DB on so many levels. They develop pickups for DB. This in turn makes an inherent acoustic instrument electric. I was getting frustrated a couple months back, because of cost of repairing my DB. In my mind, and I told a friend this, I am an electric bassist. He told me to go and buy a EUB. I thought about that for two seconds. Here is the irony. The words Electric and Acoustic, when describing a bass string instrument don't mean what they used to. Electric meant BG; Acoustic meant DB. In todays world we have EBG. ADB. EUB, and ABG. I am not giving up on the DB, but I have been giving some serious thought to sticking with my own world of bass instruments, and getting a ABG. If I wanted a EUB for sound, I would just go buy a fretless BG. I want the sound of the wood and air that an acoustic instrument gives.