Realist, Full Circle, and Wilson Systems

[cdaloisio]

I use The David Gage Realist on my bass now. I have had countless problems with it. On more than one occasion I have had to remove the pickup from the bass prior to a gig and mess with it aimlessly until it would produce a sound. Also I simply don't like the sound it produces when it is working properly. I play through a Hartke Kickback 12 inch, perhaps the pairing is part of the problem. There is another bass player in town who plays with a similar amplifier, but with the Wilson Systems pickup. The sound this setup produces, even when I play his bass, is far superior to mine. Also, I have had the Fishman Full Circle recommended to me a few times.

I am considering two options at this point:
1. Purchasing the Wilson pickup for $760
2. Purchasing the Full Circle for $210

Any suggestions?

[scott reed]

It would help us if you would fill in your profile.

Offhand, I'd get the Full Circle and save the money and added installation expense of
the Wilson but it depends on your bass and the tone you prefer.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by cdaloisio

I use The David Gage Realist on my bass now. I have had countless problems with it. On more than one occasion I have had to remove the pickup from the bass prior to a gig and mess with it aimlessly until it would produce a sound. Also I simply don't like the sound it produces when it is working properly. I play through a Hartke Kickback 12 inch, perhaps the pairing is part of the problem. There is another bass player in town who plays with a similar amplifier, but with the Wilson Systems pickup. The sound this setup produces, even when I play his bass, is far superior to mine. Also, I have had the Fishman Full Circle recommended to me a few times.

I am considering two options at this point:
1. Purchasing the Wilson pickup for $760
2. Purchasing the Full Circle for $210

Any suggestions?

Cdaloisio,
Well I hate to tell you this but, IME the Hartke Kickback isn't an ideal amp for judging the tone quality of your pickup.
How long have you had the Realist. They can fatigue after around 4 years and start to sound not so good. If it's less than a year old I'd give David Gage a call and see if I could swap it out. IMHO I'd go with the Fishman Full Circle, especially if you already have aluminum adjusters on your bass. The Wilson was once the "state of the art" in pickups but IMHO it's time has past, it has great detail but it lacks in overall tone quality and drilling holes in the bridge to install it is tricky and evasive IME. Just my opinion though.

Ric

[cdaloisio]

Originally Posted by scott reed

It would help us if you would fill in your profile.

Offhand, I'd get the Full Circle and save the money and added installation expense of
the Wilson but it depends on your bass and the tone you prefer.

scott,
I filled in my profile, so if that information will help you now, then please use it. Also thanks for your advice.

[hdiddy]

omg, don't walk, run and buy another amp. IME, anything Hartke is terrible for double bass. Terrible is an understatement. I had a Kickback 12 (also an old head & 2x10 cab) and the only thing it excelled at was marking farting noises. Serious! There's something wrong with their speakers that make them totally unsuitable for Double Bass.

In this particular case, it's not the bass nor pickup, it's the amp! Don't believe me? Go demo a quality amp. Any of the smaller PJB amps, AI, or the like. Even a GK MB150 is better than that Hartke.

[scott reed]

Cdaloisio,
Nice profile.
Are you playing a plywood or a carved double bass?
The dough you'd save not buying a Wilson could go toward that AI amp you're G.A.S.ing
for!

[cdaloisio]

scott reed,
I'm playing a plywood bass sadly. I suppose i should update my G.A.S. even further. I'd like a lot of things, but specifically a new carved bass would be great. I suppose after all the suggestions my best bet is probably with the Full Circle.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

omg, don't walk, run and buy another amp. IME, anything Hartke is terrible for double bass. Terrible is an understatement. I had a Kickback 12 (also an old head & 2x10 cab) and the only thing it excelled at was marking farting noises. Serious! There's something wrong with their speakers that make them totally unsuitable for Double Bass.

In this particular case, it's not the bass nor pickup, it's the amp! Don't believe me? Go demo a quality amp. Any of the smaller PJB amps, AI, or the like. Even a GK MB150 is better than that Hartke.

I've seen Dave Holland use a MB150 with a Hartke extension speaker.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

If the bass and pickup don't sound good together, all amps are terrible. The OP could buy a WW and not get a good sound.
And I like the MB150 and have gotten a good tone out of the Hartke kickback. YMMV etc, etc............

1) As fingers said, Realists fail and when they fail, they either don't work at all, or sound weak and nasally when they do. They are also sensitive to fit so be sure there are no gaps between the foot, pickup and top.
2) Full Circle is the prescription for a pickup that almost always sounds good, so consider that.
3) Fdeck HPF filter for proper pickup loading, phase correction and roll-off of low frequency junk.

Your problem is pickup/bass related much more than amp related. IMO, work on the front end and your amp may be just fine for quite awhile.

[Gary Lynch]

Originally Posted by fingers

I've seen Dave Holland use a MB150 with a Hartke extension speaker.

I tried an extension on my MB 150 and found it to not really do a whole lot for me. I liked the MB 150 (it's abilities however limited) better without one. A handy light small combo for practice.

Now that I have a EA Doubler and a Whizzy 12, I really need a better pickup on the DB.

Realist was too boomy. Rev Solo II had too much finger noise no matter what I EQ'd or tried. I guess now it's a try for a FC and I hope it works because this is getting tiresome. If wing pickups are too sensitive they seem to pick up finger noise too much at least on my rig. I need something that will be ok tone wise and keep the signal focused to what is coming out the F Holes and not going down the bass side of the bridge.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by fingers

I've seen Dave Holland use a MB150 with a Hartke extension speaker.

I'm willing to bet as a travelling musician, Dave Holland or anyone of his stature is more likely to use whatever he can get his hands on. Ron Carter has stopped touring with his personal bass and uses anything he can borrow.

If a Hartke is so good, name one professional double bassist that uses a Hartke as part of their regular personal rig. If they go big, it's usually GK (McBride, Charnett Moffett, Holland come to my mind). Even in your example, Holland is still using a GK as part of his signal chain.

All links in the signal chain are important. Decent pickup, decent amp, decent technique. If any one of those components are bad, you will get a bad sound. Even a crappy pickup will sound decent with a good amp and what's a crappy pickup? Underwood? Magnetic? The Realist is nowhere near being the worst pickup out there. It's my contention that the amp is the weak link because that has been my experience and there are a few others who agree with me when the topic has come up about the Kickbacks. And I know my technique is at least somewhat decent. As for bad Bad technique, well there's not much one can do about that by just typing words over the intertubes unless video is taken - not to say that it's probably the most important element out of the signal chain.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

There's something wrong with their speakers that make them totally unsuitable for Double

IMO the speakers are not the issue. I have heard many DB get a good tone from those cabs. When given a list of backline stuff I usually end up choosing a Hartke cab. I feel like they are the tightest sounding EB cabs and lack all the artificial low end. That said I think the amps suck for DB. For most festival gigs with backline I end up using a GK 400rb or 800rb and a Hartke 4x10 if I have a choice.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by clink

If the bass and pickup don't sound good together, all amps are terrible. The OP could buy a WW and not get a good sound.

Well, since I got my first Walter Woods Amp (a MI-100-8)
I've owned a Underwood, A Fishman BP-100, and the Realist.
Now, the Realists sounds the best, and the Underwood is the runner up, but frankly, although the BP-100 has that nasty midrange nasal quality the Woods would EQ some of that garbage out. It just couldn't work miracles.

Originally Posted by clink

I
And I like the MB150 and have gotten a good tone out of the Hartke kickback. YMMV etc, etc............

As long as it's a MBS I'm there with you, although I really loved both the earlier 200MB in both it's incarnations (better DB friendly EQ). Personally, I've never had any luck with a Hartke Kickback. But, the one I tried using belonged to Webster University and frankly, it had been through the wringer.

Originally Posted by clink

1) As fingers said, Realists fail and when they fail, they either don't work at all, or sound weak and nasally when they do. They are also sensitive to fit so be sure there are no gaps between the foot, pickup and top.

David Gages' rep admitted as much to this in a previous thread several years ago on Talkbass ( it's difficult to find amongst all the new threads). Four years is a pretty good life span expiration date for the Realist, although this time is variable.

Originally Posted by clink

2) Full Circle is the prescription for a pickup that almost always sounds good, so consider that.

Chris's new poll is supporting this.

Originally Posted by clink

3) Fdeck HPF filter for proper pickup loading, phase correction and roll-off of low frequency junk.

This little box is the best dang device to come along in years and it's also the most reasonable.

Originally Posted by clink

Your problem is pickup/bass related much more than amp related. IMO, work on the front end and your amp may be just fine for quite awhile.

Well, in the stream of things if you don't have your ducks in order with a decent bass and pickup, then you're absolutely correct, you can't get a decent amp sound regardless of the amp. However, lots of DB players use Acoustic Image, Euphonic Audio, Gallien Krueger, Genz Benz, and Walter Woods Amps because a great pre amp will take you a long way to a great sound. Hartke's and SWR's IMHO, IME just aren't capable of producing the same quality of sound. Just my opinion though.

Ric

[Chris Symer]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

.... name one professional double bassist that uses a Hartke as part of their regular personal rig..

Trey Henry.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

I'm willing to bet as a travelling musician, Dave Holland or anyone of his stature is more likely to use whatever he can get his hands on. Ron Carter has stopped touring with his personal bass and uses anything he can borrow.

The rigors of traveling force all kind's of weird amps on professional players. I've actually heard Ron Carter using a Crate Bass Amp and he still sounded just wonderful. Those guys can play through cardboard boxes and still sound very good. Dave used to use the GK MBE paired with various 4X10's when I saw him a year ago he was using that setup with a Czech Ease. It sounded really great, but then it was Dave Holland.

Originally Posted by hdiddy

If a Hartke is so good, name one professional double bassist that uses a Hartke as part of their regular personal rig. If they go big, it's usually GK (McBride, Charnett Moffett, Holland come to my mind). Even in your example, Holland is still using a GK as part of his signal chain.

I've never had any success with a Hartke,

Originally Posted by hdiddy

All links in the signal chain are important. Decent pickup, decent amp, decent technique. If any one of those components are bad, you will get a bad sound. Even a crappy pickup will sound decent with a good amp and what's a crappy pickup? Underwood? Magnetic?

Although I kind of draw the line at magnetics, the late Niels Henning Orsted Peterson used a Pierre Josephs string charger, I didn't love his tone, but his musicality and virtuosity were without question. Viktor Krauss uses a Fishman BP-100 in combination with other pickups. He's a wizzard on the double bass.

Originally Posted by hdiddy

The Realist is nowhere near being the worst pickup out there. It's my contention that the amp is the weak link because that has been my experience and there are a few others who agree with me when the topic has come up about the Kickbacks. And I know my technique is at least somewhat decent. As for bad Bad technique, well there's not much one can do about that by just typing words over the intertubes unless video is taken - not to say that it's probably the most important element out of the signal chain.

Personally, I've never had any luck with the Kickback or SWR Combos for that matter, but it certainly doesn't mean that others won't. Although I think IMHO that other amps, like the GK's sound much better. Frankly, even though Hartke still builds those amps, I haven't seen anyone playing DB through one in several years. Lots of better choices now.

Ric

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Originally Posted by cdaloisio

I use The David Gage Realist on my bass now. I have had countless problems with it. On more than one occasion I have had to remove the pickup from the bass prior to a gig and mess with it aimlessly until it would produce a sound. Also I simply don't like the sound it produces when it is working properly.

The best amp in the world ain't gonna do much if the pickup doesn't even work.

Do I think a Hartke kickback should be considered when shopping for an amp to use with a DB? Not on your life. There are many better choices out there, but given the choice of buying a pickup that works or a new amp?

FWIW, my one experience with Hartke was at a quintet rehearsal in a guy's finished basement. It didn't sound half bad.

I DO believe many, many upright players invest time and money in better and better amps when investing in better technique and possibly a better instrument would be wiser.
Sadly, this comes from personal experience. Does anybody think Ray Brown wouldn't probably sound good through a Hartke kickback?

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Originally Posted by Ric Vice

The rigors of traveling force all kind's of weird amps on professional players. I've actually heard Ron Carter using a Crate Bass Amp and he still sounded just wonderful. Those guys can play through cardboard boxes and still sound very good. Dave used to use the GK MBE paired with various 4X10's when I saw him a year ago he was using that setup with a Czech Ease. It sounded really great, but then it was Dave Holland................


Ric

Looks like you beat me to it.

[bolo]

Originally Posted by Gary Lynch

Rev Solo II had too much finger noise no matter what I EQ'd or tried.

Try flipping it over, with the "R" symbol facing the bass. If you've already got one, can't hurt.

[bolo]

Originally Posted by cdaloisio

I am considering two options at this point:

1. Purchasing the Wilson pickup for $760
2. Purchasing the Full Circle for $210

Any suggestions?

Welcome to TB! Your profile lists a lot of current gigs. So if you're a bass heavyweight and I am about to display my ignorance by not knowing it, I apologize.

Just speaking to the OP, not all the stuff that followed, I'd vote option 2.

Disclaimer - Never tried the Full Circle myself. I like my Kolstein hardwood bridge adjusters. But ... some polling results are coming in here, if you haven't seen it yet:

What pickup do the TB DB guys prefer?

That said, clink's suggestions are also excellent. Is your bass set up and tuned up by a good luthier? Happy with your strings and your acoustic sound?

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Collin,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp5WS9vJW4U
That's some nice slab playing. Do you have anyclips on DB? It looks like you're gigging quite a bit for someone your age. Keep at it.