Realist vs Bass Max?

trounsontime · #1 11-23-2006, 03:10 PM

Hi everyone, I've just got my first double bass (finally!) and I'm now considering what pickup to put on it. I've narrowed it down basically to the K&K Bass Max and the David Gage Realist. I've heard the Realist might not be as suited to use on ply basses, mine has a solid top but laminated sides and back. I'm not planning to use a preamp cos I reckon my amp (Ashdown Electric Blue, currently not with me due to breaking down and me living away from it) will be able to cope with it (when it's fixed!). I play fairly straightforward jazz and just want a warm, defined sound, not to hi-fi but still with character. I assume the realist might be good for that kind of sound, but I hear the Bass Max is capable of more volume, though I can't imagine playing many loud gigs. Let me know what you think I should get, thanks all

**Bob Gollihur** · #2 11-23-2006, 04:34 PM

The location of a pickup on a bridge has a large influence on the sound. The Realist, as it is against the body, provides more of the body sound and less string in the signal. It's good that you have a solid top, because the Realist doesn't always do its best on a new and stiff laminated top. The Bass Max gets a more balanced string and body sound, again due to location. If your volumes are low to moderate and you prefer "the sound of an acoustic bass from 25 feet away" the Realist could be your choice. If you expect to be in more competitive situations (dense mix) and/or prefer a closer sound, with more string detail mixed in, then the Bass Max might be a better choice.

Marc Piane · #3 11-25-2006, 01:11 AM

I personally don't care for the sound of the Bass Max. It does have a usable signal at high volumes but the tone is pretty electric imho.

I use the Realist and have been thrilled. My ply bass sounds ok with it but my carved bass sounds great. Very woody but also focused. I agree that it is matched better with a carved bass.

eadg52 · #4 11-26-2006, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trounsontime

Hi everyone, I've just got my first double bass (finally!) and I'm now considering what pickup to put on it. I've narrowed it down basically to the K&K Bass Max and the David Gage Realist. I've heard the Realist might not be as suited to use on ply basses, mine has a solid top but laminated sides and back. I'm not planning to use a preamp cos I reckon my amp (Ashdown Electric Blue, currently not with me due to breaking down and me living away from it) will be able to cope with it (when it's fixed!). I play fairly straightforward jazz and just want a warm, defined sound, not to hi-fi but still with character. I assume the realist might be good for that kind of sound, but I hear the Bass Max is capable of more volume, though I can't imagine playing many loud gigs. Let me know what you think I should get, thanks all

As someone similar to yourself (I've had my Stentor for about seven weeks now) perhaps my experiences so far may be of help. Not having used a Realist I can't comment but the Bass Max (from the esteemed Bob Golihur) has it's nose in front of the Rev Solo at the moment in terms of the tone I am happiest with. I have the Pure Preamp but the BassMax is quite happy on it's own as it gives a hot enough signal to render the pre's eq surplus to requirements although this may be down to the character of the amp I first used, an Ashdowm ABM 300w 2x10 combo I use for BG gigs (plugged into the effects return input - noticably better tone than going through the Ashdown's eq first, I've found).
Another big difference to the tone from the BassMax is to fit it between the 'G' side wings of the bridge rather than under the 'E' side as is usually recommended (and what I first did). This takes away a lot of the 'thickness' of tone and improves clarity. Response across the strings was greatly improved as well. Being somewhat underwhelmed by the tone (with the position of the pickup on the 'E' side, and admittedly too lazy to swap it over to the other side of the bridge) I then bought the Rev Solo which was a big improvement (fitted on the bass side) but only with the preamp utilised. Overcoming my laziness I got my file out and fitted the BassMax to the treble side of the bridge to be able to quickly compare the two different pickups and arrive at where I am now - the BassMax slightly in front of the Rev Solo, probably due to the K&K's hotter output suiting my amplifier better.
Not meaning to worry your wallet but the amp you use plays a big part in the sound you'll get as well. I took a chance on ebay this week and got a Roland DB500 (150w, 1x12+tweeter) for a bargain £100 and it out-performs the Ashdown hands down in both volume and tone despite being half the size/weight/cost (new) of the Ashdown.

Steve

dfp · #5 11-28-2006, 08:13 AM

i would like the bass max if i could get it to pick up all 4 strings evenly. which ever wing i put it in, that's the side i get more of... not surprising, but disappointing...

granted, i never felt like the Realist gave me a perfectly even sound across all 4 strings either. plus the Realist seems to have lost a lot of clarity since when it was new... does the element get crushed over time?

the Rev solo just didn't sound natural on my bass, tried several different fittings, positions.

**Bob Gollihur** · #6 11-28-2006, 10:28 AM

If a bass bridge is shorter than a typical 3/4 size (around 5.5-6 inches), or if it is one of the types with especially long legs, the closer proximity to the bridge top means more emphasis on the pickup side. That's an issue with any pickup that mounts in the wing, since there's not enough wood to diffuse the sound. If that's the case, either a new bridge, different pickup position, or two bridge wing pickups may be the solution.

I've also found that, in many cases, some amplifiers' natural tendency is to thin out a little at the G and D string's frequencies, perhaps due to bass control center frequencies, the driver, the room, my old ears, etc. In any case, sometimes locating the pickup on the G side can help.

I always keep a small 7 band Bass EQ pedal in my gig bag, a clone of the Boss GEB-7. Tweaking that 120hz band can help clarity and boost response of those two strings, as well as offer some other signal compensation for the stage from hell when needed.

Bruce Lindfield · #7 11-28-2006, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eadg52

As someone similar to yourself (I've had my Stentor for about seven weeks now) perhaps my experiences so far may be of help. Not having used a Realist I can't comment but the Bass Max (from the esteemed Bob Golihur) has it's nose in front of the Rev Solo at the moment in terms of the tone I am happiest with. I have the Pure Preamp but the BassMax is quite happy on it's own as it gives a hot enough signal to render the pre's eq surplus to requirements although this may be down to the character of the amp I first used, an Ashdowm ABM 300w 2x10 combo I use for BG gigs (plugged into the effects return input - noticably better tone than going through the Ashdown's eq first, I've found).
Another big difference to the tone from the BassMax is to fit it between the 'G' side wings of the bridge rather than under the 'E' side as is usually recommended (and what I first did). This takes away a lot of the 'thickness' of tone and improves clarity. Response across the strings was greatly improved as well. Being somewhat underwhelmed by the tone (with the position of the pickup on the 'E' side, and admittedly too lazy to swap it over to the other side of the bridge) I then bought the Rev Solo which was a big improvement (fitted on the bass side) but only with the preamp utilised. Overcoming my laziness I got my file out and fitted the BassMax to the treble side of the bridge to be able to quickly compare the two different pickups and arrive at where I am now - the BassMax slightly in front of the Rev Solo, probably due to the K&K's hotter output suiting my amplifier better.

I've had my Stentor Elysia for about a year now and I have come to the opposite conclusion - so I bought both a K&K Bass max and a Revolution Solo.

After trying both for a while I have decided I like the Rev Solo - as it gives me a much more natural acoustic sound , whereas the K&K was sort of "boxy" and coloured.

There is a problem in that the Rev Solo has a very low output and this does mean that I have often needed another preamp - I got good results by using a Sadowsky outboard, that I had previously used on passive BGs!

But I find with my EA iamp and two EA VL208s - the REV Solo sounds wonderful, even without the preamp!!

kwd · #8 12-02-2006, 01:10 PM

I own own both the Realist and BassMax. I was finally able to free up enough time to do a side by side evaluation. My findings, thoughts follow.

My comparison test utilized a K&K dual preamp that allows me to blend the signals of the Realist and BassMax. I run the dual preamp output into the 'preamp in' of my Polytone MiniBrute 12".

There is a general consensus that the BassMax sounds electric and void of 'woodiness' when compared against the Realist. I think this is due to the 'hotness' of the BassMax. I found that by dialing out the signal on the preamp I could get a woodier sound that approximated the sound of the Realist. For arco, I think the Realist wins the tie-breaker. The downside of the Realist is its succeptability to ambient vibrations produced by drummers and other non-musiical types. The body mounted set-up seems to underscore this problem. And, I think it's exacerbated by carved instruments as they are more likely to vibrate sympathetically to ambient vibrations. I have a hyrid Christopher.

When using the Realist I get complaints from other musicians that they can't hear me walking. The BassMax does afford a more audible, punchier sound but at the expense of a woody sound.

So, it's kind of a mixed bag. I think the BassMax requires a preamp. Many people have good luck not using a preamp with the Realist, but I haven't been so lucky. I think the BassMax is good if you don't require an amplified arco sound. Otherwise, I'd go with the Realist.

With the dual channel preamp, I have the luxury of dialing in/out the Realist and BassMax signals. I find it hard to discern the benefit though. I feel like I'm eternally 'knob turning' to get the best mix. It's an unconstrained problem.

I was hoping I could audition an LR Baggs Para-acoustic DI and the SansAmp Bass Driver today with the Realist and Bassmax.

I currently have the BassMax mounted on the bass side of bridge, as recommended. As I increase the signal on the BassMax I get annoyed by the flabby, overdriven sound in the lower register. I know people have had good luck moving the BassMax to the treble side but I'm not up for the filing. I am curious about how the BassMax would sound with an eq/preamp. Perhaps the flabiness could be dialed out.

Silversorcerer · #9 12-03-2006, 08:22 PM

A buddy of mine uses a Realist on an old Kay ply that yields a very old-school "poomf" that I like. His arco sound is not to good to my ear though.

I have the Bassmax and on my old ply about the best sound I could get was not quite as good as my Fender P, and quite similar. Switching to a carved Kremona DB completely changed the way the pick-up sounded. I was about to try something else and the carved bass (with a good deal more wood in the bridge than on my old bass) just sounded awesome with the K&K. It also was much better balanced between arco and pizz. than with my old ply bass. There are so many factors that come into the equation that it is almost impossible to predict which will sound the best on what DB.

Another P/U worth checking out is the Underwood pick-up, which has fittings under both wings.

Greg Clinkingbeard · #10 12-03-2006, 09:07 PM

The Revolution Solo 2 is growing on me. It seems to do better without a preamp. The price is also good.

I also like the Underwood but it probably needs a preamp. The good thing about it is that you will always be heard.

jsbarber · #11 12-03-2006, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clink

... I also like the Underwood but it probably needs a preamp...

If the input impedance of your amplifier is less than about 1 megaohm, then you will need a preamp, if it is over 1 megaohm you should be fine. [As I was told by Don Underwood.]

Jim

Steve Boisen · #12 12-05-2006, 08:07 PM

I use a Realist and recently sold my Bass Max here on TalkBass. The Realist sounds much better on my 1949 Kay M-1. The Bass Max sounded thumpy and less full on my bass, but when I used a SansAmp Acoustic DI preamp and bypassed the preamp on my combo (an SWR WM12 or GK MB150S) by plugging the preamp directly into the effects return, the sound from the Bass Max was almost as good as the Realist. I never tried it this way on a gig, but in my music room this was the only time I thought the Bass Max sounded good.

- Steve

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #13 12-05-2006, 09:25 PM

I've had both, and preferred the Bass Max to the Realist, but I agree for the most part agree with kwd's assessment of both - the Bass Max definitely sounds better with a preamp to mitigate the "hotness" of the signal. The Realist occasionally sounded great, but almost didn't amplify the G string on either of the basses I had it on at all...the higher up the G string I went, the less it amplified. It felt like being stranded up there.

I greatly prefer the Full Circle to either.

CamMcIntyre · #14 12-13-2006, 04:47 PM

I recently sold my K&K Bass Master Pro setup to someone in our forum after 3 years or so of use. The bass is my New Standard Cleveland [a ply from 2003, ply top & back, carved sides]. I actually recorded clips of both pickups [individually] on my bass. I need to rerecord the realist one because i had to adjust my bridge. PM me w/your email if you'd like to hear them. The K&K Setup [a double big twin plus bass max] was installed by Arnold @ New Standard Basses. The Realist was installed by me....in my dorm room.

I prefer the Realist. I liked the Bass Max though. The bass max to me had more string and finger sound [as many have stated], however-the output level for me was drastically lower than that of the realist. I think that's the first time i've heard people say that on here. The sound of my bass through the Realist is what i hear in my head when i think of my bass. Big, round, and you can feel it in your chest when i'm walkin a line.

I think everyone on here is at least remotely familiar w/the SWR WM12s. With the Bass max, i typically had to boost the bass & cut the treble on the amp to warm up the sound in addition to running the amp quite hot [gain around noon-1 o'clock] and master varied to suite the venue. With the realist, i turn the gain and master volume up barely and i get pretty good volume for a combo. The output of the Realist for me is extremely high. I haven't had the issue of the bass feed backing just yet.

My first chance to play the Realist in a group setting was for one of my combo concerts earlier this semester. The bassists in the audience, our combo coach, and the other members of the combo mentioned how they could feel my playing more. In Guitar Ensemble-the guys couldn't tell what i changed, but liked it whatever it was.

Take it easy everyone....i'm off to the Green Mill in a few hours for a gig.

Russell Bergum · #15 12-13-2006, 11:22 PM

I have a Bass Max with my vintage Juzek bass, and I love it. Even volume across the strings, and I'm running it directly into my amp (Ampeg SVT 6Pro) and it sounds great. I have a Sadowsky outboard preamp that I have not even used with the Bass Max as it sounds great going directly into my amp. I play mainly arco, would say that it sounds amazingly natural, and NOT like an electric bass. I never feedback, and I play directly in front of my amp, facing the amp, with no feedback. Keep in mind, that the response with the Bass Max is dependent on how tightly it fits in the bridge...too tight and it will sound thin, too loose it will sound boomy. Mine sounded perfect with no tweaking.

Steve Boisen · #16 12-13-2006, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamMcIntyre

With the realist, i turn the gain and master volume up barely and i get pretty good volume for a combo. The output of the Realist for me is extremely high.

My Realist (which I bought new in 2004) has the lowest output of any pickup I've owned. I wonder if there is something wrong with mine?

- Steve

CamMcIntyre · #17 12-14-2006, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Boisen

My Realist (which I bought new in 2004) has the lowest output of any pickup I've owned. I wonder if there is something wrong with mine?

- Steve

To be honest-i would email the Gage shop and ask. I had to futz around with the placement of the pickup to achieve the sound that i've got.

take it easy.

Johnny L · #18 12-14-2006, 10:25 AM

The coolest part about the Realist to me is that not only is it super easy to put on and take off, it's locked onto the bass pretty darn securely when you've got it on.

**Bob Gollihur** · #19 12-14-2006, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Boisen

My Realist (which I bought new in 2004) has the lowest output of any pickup I've owned. I wonder if there is something wrong with mine?

- Steve

One of the most common issues can be the Leaning Tower of Bridges, since they are so easily pulled northward by tuning. While it may not be your problem, having that foot squarely on top of the Realist can be an issue if folks notice a change of sound and volume.

Steve Boisen · #20 12-14-2006, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Gollihur

One of the most common issues can be the Leaning Tower of Bridges, since they are so easily pulled northward by tuning. While it may not be your problem, having that foot squarely on top of the Realist can be an issue if folks notice a change of sound and volume.

The output has been the same the whole time I've used it, including when I had a different bridge in the instrument.

- Steve