Realist vs Full Circle

Macher · #1 09-02-2006, 12:30 PM

Hello,

I am planning to buy my first UB, a little Suzuki that sounds really surprising for the price.

I want to buy it from a luthier. The guy told me he won't charge me to install a David Gage Realist Pickup but he would charge me an extra $100 to install the Full Circle.

I heard lots of great things about both pickups. I just don't know what to choose but i want the best because i will be playing amplified a lot of times. Trio gigs, more loud combos and big band sets.

I have a Mesa/Boogie MPulse 360 bass head that i use with my BG. It is great! Tube preamp and 8 band semi-parametric transistor EQ. I run it through a David Eden 2x10 XST.

What would you recommend?? Full circle or Realist?

Would i need a preamp with both or my Mesa would cut it?

Thanks

larry · #2 09-02-2006, 05:39 PM

I've owned both, and they are both very good. My preference would be for the Full Circle, but that's my opinion. I thought the Realist seemed a little muddy in comparison. I use a Revolution Solo now, anyway. Very hard to say which is "best". So much depends on your bass, your amp, the sound you want, etc.

Never had a problem without a preamp, but I'm sure a really nice pre would only improve the sound.

Macher · #3 09-02-2006, 06:05 PM

And how do you like the Revolution solo? I am looking for a good pickup and it looks interesting too.

Jérôme

fish slapper · #4 09-02-2006, 06:15 PM

Never had the Realist but have talked to those who do. They seem suited to higher end carved basses. Because they work off the top so much, the better quality top you have, the better it will sound. In the last couple months I've gone from a BassMax to a Rev Solo and just yesterday I had a Full Circle installed. To my ears: BassMax = lots of bass response but too much mud and crazy harmonics. RS = very natural sounding but lots of high end and hardly any bass. With just a day of playing, the FC seems to be the best of both.

While I had my FC professionally installed, it wasn't that difficult. My luthier did in while I was standing there shooting the breeze with him. But the pup itself is about $100 more than the others so they might be just charging you more for the more expensive hardware.

BBTW: the pre-amp is more to match the impedence that alter tone. Acoustic Image stuff (and I think Walter Woods) come with high impedence inputs. I barely don't need a pre with my AI Clarus but since I like to keep the rig simple, I live without. I suspect a Mesa that's built for BG is going to be happier with some kind of pre-amp.

Welcome to the dark side!

Reuben · #5 09-02-2006, 08:11 PM

Matching the impedance inherently improves tone.

larry · #6 09-02-2006, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macher

And how do you like the Revolution solo? I am looking for a good pickup and it looks interesting too.
Jérôme

All I can say is that it works great on my bass with my amp. I say that because the Full Circle sounded better than the Solo with a different amp. Could be the impedance matching thing, or not. The pick up is only one part of the chain. The Solo seems "woodier" to me with my rig.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fish slapper

RS = very natural sounding but lots of high end and hardly any bass.

That is not my experience with the Solo. Plenty 'o bass here. I've had it on two different basses with no issues in that department.

The best thing I ever did for my sound was to buy a blender and add a mic to my set up. A mic always sounds better. They can be a pain in the arse, but soooo worth it IMO. That's a whole new can of worms, though.

greitzer · #7 09-02-2006, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larry

The best thing I ever did for my sound was to buy a blender and add a mic to my set up...

Larry, what type of blender did you get? Are you happy with it?

larry · #8 09-03-2006, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greitzer

Larry, what type of blender did you get? Are you happy with it?

I bought the Dtar Solstice, and I am happy with it for the most part. I think the EQ is voiced (as in what frequencies the "bass", "mid" and "treble" knobs adjust) more for acoustic guitar than bass, but it's no big deal. There's plenty more detailed info in some of the threads about blenders. There was another recent thread about mics too. That's another big topic.

I just think that dialing in even a small amount of mic just adds so much to the sound that a pick up alone can't provide.

Bassist4Life · #9 09-03-2006, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macher

I want to buy it from a luthier. The guy told me he won't charge me to install a David Gage Realist Pickup but he would charge me an extra $100 to install the Full Circle.

I have the full-circle on my 3/4 Shen SB200. Visit my bass page for pics and a sound clip. I can't believe he wants to charge $100 for the install! The luthier I went to installed it for free; although, I was having a new enpin installed at the same time. I like the pickup. I plug it directly into my SWR combo but I have to turn up the amp all the way. A preamp might help boost the signal a bit (I'm not sure). I think it would sound even better to blend it with a mic, but I don't have the cash for that. Actually, I'm considering the sale of my Shen for a Steinberger URB.

Joe

Fred W · #10 09-03-2006, 09:49 AM

I've had all three pickups mentioned here on my Kay. The Full Circle is far and away the best. Clean usable tone and more gain before feedback. The Realist was okay low to medium volume, when turned up unwanted strange sounds appear, plus feedback. The Revolution had a puny output and too hi impedance, even a WW Ultra needed to be cranked up. I understand the new ones have been modified for more output and lower imps. The Full Circle sounds good at any volume. At low volume it is very faithful to the true acoustic sound of my bass.

Andy Allen · #11 09-03-2006, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larry

I bought the Dtar Solstice, and I am happy with it for the most part. I think the EQ is voiced (as in what frequencies the "bass", "mid" and "treble" knobs adjust) more for acoustic guitar than bass, but it's no big deal. There's plenty more detailed info in some of the threads about blenders. There was another recent thread about mics too. That's another big topic.

I just think that dialing in even a small amount of mic just adds so much to the sound that a pick up alone can't provide.

+1

I've had a Solstice for about 3 months now, and while it's not perfect, it's a very good, versatile and high quality unit. It's made a big difference to my ability to manage my mic and pickup, and made a big improvement to my sound, particularly when volumes start creeping up.

Andy

mesmithnm · #12 09-03-2006, 10:47 AM

What Fred said!!! My experience w/my Kay with those pickups is exactly the same. The Realist had good bottom and a pretty good sound at low volume, but my bass would tend to feedbcak if I had to crank it up. The Rev Solo didn't work at all for me - the fit into my somewhat unusual shaped bridge was problematic, so maybe I didn't give it a completely fair shake, but I never got much output and in my application, the RS was very sensitive to position - a little bump to the pickup would alter the sound drastically. I got the Full Circle and never looked back. It was easy to install (I already had 1/4-20 adjusters in the bridge) and all I had to do was plug and play. A good sound (it's still a piezo pickup) but no feedback even at higher volumes and a very robust design. I typically gig a couple of nights a week and the FC has been good to work with in every situation from jazz to bluegrass to folk/rock/roots kind of stuff.

Mark

Macher · #13 09-03-2006, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassist4Life

I can't believe he wants to charge $100 for the install! The luthier I went to installed it for free; although, I was having a new enpin installed at the same time.

I might be buying a bass from him!!! He is really weird, he just doesn't like to install it. He said it is because it wont fit the bridge and he'll have to work on it...

Bassist4Life · #14 09-04-2006, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macher

I might be buying a bass from him!!! He is really weird, he just doesn't like to install it. He said it is because it wont fit the bridge and he'll have to work on it...

Does the bridge have adjusters? If it does, then it doesn't involve all that much work. If not, then I can see an installation fee. BUT, if you're buying a bass from him, then I would think he'd throw in the installation.

Who is the luthier? Just curious...

Let me clarify something. Do you already own the Full-Circule pickup that he's going to install? OR, does the $100 fee cover the purchase and installation of the pickup? If that's the case, that would be a sweet deal.

Joe

fish slapper · #15 09-04-2006, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macher

I might be buying a bass from him!!! He is really weird, he just doesn't like to install it. He said it is because it wont fit the bridge and he'll have to work on it...

I'm guessing the current bridge doesn't have adjusters. Means cutting and drilling on the bridge.

Not a big deal for a competent luthier but probably a bit of work.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #16 09-04-2006, 08:48 AM

There are two basic reasons why the installation might be expensive:

1) If the existing bridge doesn't have adjusters already, then it will have to be recut to install them. This involves not only the cutting and drilling to fit the adjuster wheels (which must be done exactly, or the contact with the bridge leg will be skewed), but also reshaping the top of the bridge.

2) If the bridge has adjusters with a larger thread diameter than the FC adjusters. When this is the case, the old adjuster holes have to be filled and then recut, again to exacting specifications. This was done on my LaScala hybrid before I ever bought the bass, and fortunately, the luthier who did it did a really nice job. I have subsequently heard several luthiers say that they don't like to do this because the margin for error is so small - they'd rather just install a new bridge.

I've been hearing a lot of conversation lately on the board about the prices that lutheirs charge to do their work. Discussion can be a healthy thing when it informs, and in that regard, it's all good. But sometimes I wonder if people realize how lucky we (the players) are to have dedicated craftsmen who have spent years to develop the expertise to work on the instruments we play. God knows, they aren't in the business to get rich. Personally, I'd rather spend the money to get a job done right than have my instrument and my performances potentially compromised by something going wrong that I tried to skimp on. *

* (this comment was made more as a regular member than a moderator. I don't wish to stifle these kinds of discussions at all - but I would like to weigh in on the issue of "pay to get the job done right, and be glad there are people out there to help you do this".)

Bassist4Life · #17 09-04-2006, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

God knows, they aren't in the business to get rich. Personally, I'd rather spend the money to get a job done right than have my instrument and my performances potentially compromised by something going wrong that I tried to skimp on.

You're right about luthiers not being in the business to get rich. Finding the right luthier is very important. Somtimes they may charge you an arm and a let to get the job done; however, they might do the job for very little money or even FREE. The fee (or lack of) doesn't change the quality of their work. An excellent luthier is going to do an excellent job. They don't want to sully their name and reputation by doing a poor job.

IMO,
Joe

fish slapper · #18 09-04-2006, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Personally, I'd rather spend the money to get a job done right than have my instrument and my performances potentially compromised by something going wrong that I tried to skimp on.

Amen to that. After the heartache of getting my RSII installed my days of "self luthier" are over.

I'd gladly pay my guy to install anything now.

I guess I lucked out and got the adjusters and all the bridgework (and quite a bit of neck work) done as part of the "value added" set-up when I bought the bass. So when I had the FC installed it was a small enough job to be "free with purchase."

Macher, I would ask if adjusters are going to be installed even if you don't get the FC pup.

Macher · #19 09-04-2006, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

There are two basic reasons why the installation might be expensive:

2) If the bridge has adjusters with a larger thread diameter than the FC adjusters. When this is the case, the old adjuster holes have to be filled and then recut, again to exacting specifications. This was done on my LaScala hybrid before I ever bought the bass, and fortunately, the luthier who did it did a really nice job. I have subsequently heard several luthiers say that they don't like to do this because the margin for error is so small - they'd rather just install a new bridge.

This is what he told me. The bass already has adjusters and he didn't change his mind when i told him there are 2 different sizes for the FC.

And as far as business goes, this is a used basse he sells for a client, he takes 20% commission, he did'nt want to deal the price and wants to charge me 100$ for the installation of the FC!

I like the bass, but I'll be looking somewhere else if he is just being stupid.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #20 09-04-2006, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macher

This is what he told me. The bass already has adjusters and he didn't change his mind when i told him there are 2 different sizes for the FC.

See if you can find out what size the existing adjusters on the bass are. If Fishman makes a set of the same size, it's no big deal. You could install them yourself, or the luthier could be nice and install them for you. if not, you're going to have to pay somebody for installing them or risk screwing up the bridge yourself.