Recording Technique

anonymous0726 · #1 11-12-2002, 10:03 PM

Which makes me think that this could be posted in 'Technique' as well, but here is where it is.

Did a recording session tonight and had the best luck that I've ever had recording. I was at Garden Productions ($65/hr, great piano, better than average seperation, good sight lines to the rest of the band, one headphone mix), Jimmy Madison engineering.

He put a Neumann KM87 (?, not certain of the model number. He said it's also referred to as the 'lipstick'). Anyhow, tiny little mic, mebbe a 3/4" in diameter and an inch or two long. He shock mounted it with a bunch of rubber bands between the legs of the bridge, facing straight up. Sounded exactly like my bass with everything on the board flat. I'll get the exact model number of this mic when I talk to Jimmy next. I can't wait to hear the final mixdown.

Gotta have one of these for myself.

anonymous0726 · #2 11-12-2002, 10:10 PM

I think it was a Neumann KM84. An older one. I'll be confirming this when I get a reply to my email message to Jimmy.

**Adrian Cho** · #3 11-12-2002, 10:15 PM

This is an interesting idea (mounting it between the bridge). Would certainly have to be a short microphone to do that though and clearly with the microphone aimed out away from the bass, it wouldn't suit a live situation but I wonder about mounting it between the bridge legs and having it point up towards the scroll.

Adrian

anonymous0726 · #4 11-12-2002, 10:21 PM

By straight up I did mean toward the scroll

Straight out would have been toward the 'audience' and wouldn't have done much.

I have been mounting my AMT so that it is right between the legs of the bridge, but facing the body and about 1/8" to 1/2-3/4" away from the top, depending on how much gain I need. This works pretty well if you are loud enough to be heard on stage. You do miss some finger/string noise like this, but it's still a high-shot above what you can do with a pickup.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #5 11-13-2002, 12:11 AM

Interesting idea. How complicated was the McGyvered shockmount setup?

anonymous0726 · #6 11-13-2002, 12:20 AM

I think it was about 8 rubber bands, total. Oh, and a piece of foam to wedge the cable under the tailpiece so that it wouldn't rattle. Total cost of about $.25 and 2 minutes to mount a $1000 (used) microphone.

**Adrian Cho** · #7 11-13-2002, 07:20 PM

Yes I didn't think that straight out from the top of the bass made much sense!

This truly sounds like a great idea and would get more fingerboard noise than a mic mounted under the tailpiece. If only you had a photograph of how it was all rigged up.

As far as the mic itself goes ,a cheaper alternative would be an Oktava MC012 (make sure you get it from The Sound Room and not from some other place like the Guitar Center as the former does additional quality control) which is a similar mic.

Adrian

anonymous0726 · #8 11-14-2002, 01:23 AM

The mounting was pretty obvious and simple. A picture wouldn't tell you much more. Drop a bunch of rubber bands over the mic. Pull one end of the loop around the leg of the bridge and over the top of the mic, the original end of the loop around the bottom of the mic. Then do the same over the other leg. Repeat, rinse, etc. He had about 6 or 8 of the things on there. You might have to experiment to find the right size rubber bands. These were larger than the little guys you get from Rite Aid, but Rite Aid would probably carry rubber bands this size on a shelf nearer the floor.

I've made note of that mic. Thanks!

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #9 11-14-2002, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ray Parker
The mounting was pretty obvious and simple. A picture wouldn't tell you much more. Drop a bunch of rubber bands over the mic. Pull one end of the loop around the leg of the bridge and over the top of the mic, the original end of the loop around the bottom of the mic. Then do the same over the other leg. Repeat, rinse, etc. He had about 6 or 8 of the things on there. You might have to experiment to find the right size rubber bands. These were larger than the little guys you get from Rite Aid, but Rite Aid would probably carry rubber bands this size on a shelf nearer the floor.

I'd love to see a picture of this

I've made note of that mic. Thanks!

You might also check out the MXL 603s, which sounds great (many over at the homerecording.com, including their resident pro mic gurus, swear by this mic) and comes in with a hefty price tag of $80 from 8thstreet.com . I own two of these, and I used them on the guitar on the 2nd Johnson Chronicles CD if you want to check out their sound. They'd be the perfect size for what you're describing.

anonymous0726 · #10 11-14-2002, 10:42 AM

Here's an attempt to show the mounting. Quick'n dirty Photoshop...

Now -- this covers the rubber bands, but the mic direction is actually straight north, toward the scroll. Not toward the strings as it appears here...

gruffpuppy · #11 11-14-2002, 04:29 PM

There is a NHOP video where he has a set up like that on stage.
At least it looks like he has the mic wrapped in foam and then stuffed under the bridge.
It might be a Gary Peacock video tho.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #12 11-14-2002, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gruffpuppy
There is a NHOP video where he has a set up like that on stage.
At least it looks like he has the mic wrapped in foam and then stuffed under the bridge.
It might be a Gary Peacock video tho.

Yeah, all those old white guys look the same.

anonymous0726 · #13 11-14-2002, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
Nice piano? could I get a number and location for Gardner? Is Jimmy part of the deal or is he hired seperately?

Jimmy Madison
(212) 779-3713 (studio)
(212) 254-3170 (home)

He's part of the deal and great to work with. The Pie-anna is a LaPiana with Bosendorfer action.

**Adrian Cho** · #14 11-14-2002, 11:22 PM

My teacher said he has used a similar setup for recording many times before although they've usually used foam instead of the rubber bands (which I assume would basically act like a shock mount which would be advantageous especially in a live environment with floor vibration). He said it hasn't always sounded good but I'm sure it depends on the mic.

Adrian

**Adrian Cho** · #15 11-25-2002, 07:59 PM

I have been trying this technique that Ray detailed. I used some hair elastics to suspend it. One is attached to each of of the bridge legs (actually around the bridge adjuster thread) and the other is through the D and A holes of the tailpiece to suspend the mic plug and cable (obviously plugged into the mic). The mic I tried is an Oktava MC012. It works well but the sound is a little lacking in depth and the self-noise of the MC012 is a little high for my liking when used for close-up work. I am planning to try a Rode NT3 and I suspect this might work well.

Adrian

anonymous0726 · #16 11-26-2002, 01:07 AM

I'll br at the same studio, same engineer, but different band tomorrow night. I'll let you know if my last experience was a one-time thing or not.

**Adrian Cho** · #17 11-28-2002, 03:58 PM

Well I have decided that this is indeed a great technique. I haven't tried recording with it yet but it's great for live use.

I initially tried an Oktava MC012 as I use a pair of these for stereo recording. The mic was too noisy and the bass just didn't sound like what I wanted. I then tried a Rode NT3 which is a wonderful medium diaphragm hypercardioid mic with response down to 20 Hz. It is wonderful. The NT3 is a bargain for the price (about $200 RRP). Because the NT3 is a bigger mic than the MC012, I had to use an extra elastic looped around the heart cutout to stop it from touching the top of the bass. I have two other elastics around each of the adjuster threads and one more through the D and A holes of the tailpiece to support the mic cable which then suspends the bottom end of the mic.

The wonderful thing about this technique is that it is as good as the mic on the stand but I have less crap to cart around. I can leave the mic suspended under the bridge all the time, even in the bass bag.

Adrian

anonymous0726 · #18 11-28-2002, 09:00 PM

I tried the same position with my AMT, but not with enough time to fool around with the EQ to get it to sound right through the PA, although I think ultimately I could get a better sound this way. I currently put the AMT right between the legs of the bridge, facing and about 1/8" from the body.

The second recording with the Neumann went well again, although it wasn't my project and I would have liked to fool with the EQ a bit. It was a direct to 2 track, low budget, and not my project (just an audition recording for the pianist), so it was a bit muddy/boomy. I think I'll be using this trick for a while.

wesi44 · #19 12-03-2002, 06:15 AM

The Oktavia 012 is not normally used to record bass.Excellent results are obtained by using the ML 19 Ribbon, for studio only. Make sure you place the microphone a few feet away from the f whole to enable the true sound of your instrument to come through. Make sure you are recording in a room large enough to enable your instument to speak. I have obtained -what I consider- even better results using the RTT 102 tube microphone. Really amazing sound. This of course is for my instrument according to my ears.
Wonderful warm, dark, focused sound.

Rimas · #20 03-15-2004, 11:17 PM

I am going to be doing some recording in the next few days, so I was just checking out more on this technique. We have a few rodes condenser mics in the studio that I will try out.

However, I also wanted to see if anyone has recorded with the KK golden trinity upgrade. If I were to go for this option should I run the MONO out from the KK preamp into the board, Or should I use the DI on the clarus?

Any info would be appreciated...