Rock and roll w/ the UB?

fradubio · #1 09-03-2006, 10:33 PM

Hi Folks,
Lately I've been playing with more rockin' bands. When we're pretty quiet, levels are easy, everything is hunky dory, but when we get louder (not mega loud, but boosting into jams, etc) I loose the bass unless I turn up, then I'm fighting feedback.

Anyone have some good feedback fighting techinques? I'm running a realist into a fishman (the large stompbox sized one), into either a Roland DB 500 combo, SWR 400s, or Mesa 400. The heads are running into two Aguilar 112s.
Thanks.

5stringDNA · #2 09-03-2006, 10:56 PM

How are you positioning your speaker cabinets? You want a fair amount of distance between your bass and the speakers to start with. I'd almost recommend keeping the input volume on your amp low and using the output volume instead if you have the headroom. I use a Revolution Solo and don't really have feedback issues unless I am really close to a speaker.

junglebike · #3 09-03-2006, 11:07 PM

1. Cut the really low bass out of your rig; try to keep a good punch around 80-120hz.

2. Think about using a smaller speaker for a monitor and relying more on the PA. Make sure that your speakers aren't firing directly into your URB. Even better (but more drastic), use in-ears.

3. Damp the tailpiece. Cut a wedge of foam that you can wedge tightly between the tailpiece and body. Wrap something around the strings below the bridge to keep them from vibrating.

4. Buy an Azola EUB

(thanks to Steve Azola for running me through the same suggestions -- in that order(!!!) when I told him what my problems were a year or two back. I never got to #4, but you might.)

Pete

abaguer · #4 09-04-2006, 01:08 AM

+1 what the above poster said.

Also, there is no replacement for your bandmates realizing that they have to play to the volume of the configuration. With upright bass, it is a matter of the threshold of feedback and muddy sound. Sure you could get more volume by doing a bunch of things, but the tone generally suffers and compromises have to be made. If people want to play with an upright, they should be aware of the sonic space it inhabits and play to its strengths.

stockbass · #5 09-04-2006, 02:21 AM

...and keep your strings high!

schmittuml · #6 09-04-2006, 02:30 AM

ur running through a mesa400 and having volume troubles?!?!? u might be the first and only to ever have that problem

Uncletoad · #7 09-04-2006, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junglebutt

1. Cut the really low bass out of your rig; try to keep a good punch around 80-120hz.

2. Think about using a smaller speaker for a monitor and relying more on the PA. Make sure that your speakers aren't firing directly into your URB. Even better (but more drastic), use in-ears.

3. Damp the tailpiece. Cut a wedge of foam that you can wedge tightly between the tailpiece and body. Wrap something around the strings below the bridge to keep them from vibrating.

4. Buy an Azola EUB

Really good advice. I have been successfull in those situations with less stage volume and more PA support. I try to stay away physically from the mains and monitors, have my stage rig on the smallish side and make the PA do the work. When I get coming through the mains I can feel it in the subs. My rig becomes the mids and highs by default and feedback stays low.

Try one cab instead of two on stage. Over the last several years I went from a 410 to a 310 to a 210 and now I just use a single vl208 for every gig.

If there is no PA and you have to rely on the stage volume for your bass mix in the room get as far away from the rig as possible and put your body in between the back of the bass and the rig. Better still point it off axis from your body and the bass. If you get swallowed up try not to play too hard to keep up. Let them hear you not keeping up and they may just back off to let you back in the mix.

Oh yea and I don't agree with keeping the strings high. Lower tension strings have given me less feedback than higher.

ZuluFunk · #8 09-04-2006, 08:58 AM

Get a volume pedal in case of emergency!!!
It sure beats stopping and turning around to adjust your amp in the middle of a song.

Cut out foam inserts for the F-holes. Some people duct tape them...sheesh.

Invest in a hot spot or other compact monitor. With one of these, you can get very far from your rig, and have a small speaker of your mix on a mic stand hitting you right in the face. Serves the same purpose of an in-ear system...without the in-ears.

fdeck · #9 09-04-2006, 09:36 AM

Magnetic pickup.

junglebike · #10 09-04-2006, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fdeck

Magnetic pickup.

Oh man... those suck big time (IMHO). I'd start thinking about a Palantino or even (shudder) EBG before that....

Actually, I got to the point where if we were playing a really loud gig with bad acoustics I'd just give up and bring the P-bass. At a certain point you really honestly can't tell the difference in sound, except for the intonation problems.

fradubio · #11 09-04-2006, 01:13 PM

Thanks for all the good pointers. I'll try the foam between the tailpiece. I've seen folks with something tied around the tailpiece, but wasn't sure what it was holding on.

The Mesa 400 is plenty loud, esp. with the slab, but w/ the upright I feedback at higher levels.

I was thinking of messing more with cutting out the low-lows as I think that's where I get the feedback most. In quiet moments between songs it almost seems as if the other instruments are causing the feedback, setting the bass vibrating from the kick drum, etc.

We play for the most part w/o PA support unfortunately. No huge mega crowds yet, but I did play one coffee shop gig with the Roland combo up on a table blowing into my ear, and that was the best sounding (albeit no drums) for the upright because I could hear the amplified self over the other instruments at a really moderate volume and it carried easily into the small audience (approx. 30 folks).

For the rockin' band, at least in the smaller house band venues, I've been able to orient myself at an angle away from the Aguilar speakers, which cuts down on my own ability to hear myself well, but doesn't sacrifice general volume too much. I like the idea of mini monitors or in-ear stuff.... but I think I'd look pretty dorky at this stage of the giging career.

It seems the best bets are dampening the tailpiece, boosting mids, cut lows, maybe a volume pedal (a good tip! I actually have an a/b pedal I've used to the same effect, play at volume, then cut out at end of song while I grab a drink or something...).
Thanks.

fdeck · #12 09-04-2006, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junglebike

Oh man... those suck big time (IMHO). I'd start thinking about a Palantino or even (shudder) EBG before that...

No offense taken.

I have used a magnetic pickup for over 10 years. Depending on my mental state, I use it anywhere from 50% to 100% of the time. It is homemade, a single coil low impedance unit with rare earth magnets. And by building my own, I have the luxury of tweaking the tone at the source. I have gotten numerous compliments about my sound.

The tone is not 100% organic, but neither is a piezo to my ears. For me, playing with a piezo is a hit-or-miss affair, depending on room acoustics and volume level, among other things. And those things change over the course of a gig, for instance as a room fills up with people. In my experience, the ever-changing EQ and feedback situations are a frustration and distraction from playing the music and enjoying it. The mag pup lets me set up with minimal effort, and push the bass wherever I want it to go.

Not to get too philosophical, but upright is more than tone. It is also attack, dynamics, style, and in general the mastery of the instrument and the music. I just find that piezo pickups do as much to detract from those things as enhance them.

Perhaps an additional extenuating circumstance is that jazz tends to get played loud in my locale, making it all the worse for piezo pickups. And I seem to get called for some of the louder gigs, such as casuals in big rooms with insufficient PA support for the bass.

junglebike · #13 09-04-2006, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fdeck

No offense taken.

Didn't mean to come off harsh there... My main experience was with the Moses mag pickup (doesn't seem to be sold anymore), and it was just plain lousy (again, IMHO). I'd love to hear what you cooked up! Any pickup is a compromise, of course -- the URB sound comes from the entire instrument, not just the strings, bridge, or whatever. That's why mic's sound so much nicer most of the time. Pity about the feedback! Best live sound I ever had was with in-ears and a mic, but that's only happened once.

fdeck · #14 09-04-2006, 04:06 PM

We're cool.

My latest pup is pretty darn simple. The coils are pulled out of a couple small stepping motors that were surplus, and little rare earth magnets that fit inside. They are wired in series with alternating polarity to minimize hum without inductive loading.

Unfortunately, I alternated the polarity of the coils but not the magnets, so I can't mix the mag with a piezo. That's what I would actually like to try, and when I rebuild the pickup, I will correct the error. An interesting compromise, if achievable, would be for the mag to handle the frequencies where the piezo has feedback issues.

Jim Carr · #15 09-04-2006, 04:18 PM

I heard a pretty loud band in LA last year with upright.
Bassist had modded a set of P-bass pickups to attach at
the end of the fingerboard.

I play a lot of upright and EUB (Eminence), both with a Gage realist, but
I must admit, the P-bass pickups sounded very good. Not exactly like
upright, but way closer to upright than fretless P-bass (which I also play).

I would consider trying magnetic pups for a loud situation. As an earlier poster
pointed out, the actual upright sound is much more than just the tone.

fdeck · #16 09-04-2006, 07:08 PM

An "EMG Select" P-bass pickup was my first attempt at a mag pup for upright. But the mounting made it a hideous beast. More out of aesthetics than any other reason, I ventured into designing my own. I have learned that when gear is non-mainstream, it has to be inconspicuous. Otherwise, anybody who has any problem with my tone for any reason will automatically point to the homemade bits.