Speakers on the floor or elevated?

[joel kelsey]

Hello,

I was wondering if it is better to have your speaker cabinet on the floor or to have it raised up. In my experience, I can usually hear my self acoustically (sound should come from you, not the amp) so I leave my cabinets on the ground as opposed to raising them up. But, is it better for the audience if the cabinet is raised up? I am talking about small to medium sized rooms with no PA support. Almost all of my favorite local players leave there cabs on the floor and I can hear them just fine, but others (non bass players) have said there sound sometimes lacks definition. How much does speaker placement matter when it comes to the audience hearing you? I always feel I have a well defined "natural" sound with my cabinets on the floor. Would I project better raised up? Or would raising the cabinets only help if I can't hear myself. Any advice would be most helpful!
Thanks
Joel

[Fat Tony XIII]

Bass cabinets should definitely be on the floor. Raising a bass speaker won't sound better for the audience or you. Amp stands
help guitars etc.. because of the more direct path of their sound/frequency range.

-tony

[Jason Hollar]

Whaddup cat?

Here's something I posted a while back -- very informative.

Get That Cabinet Off The Floor!

[fish slapper]

From my limited experience, lifting the speaker off the floor really helps with monitoring and feedback control. But also takes away some of the low end I crave. A little rumble makes me feel better even though I know its probably not going out to the audience.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by joel kelsey

Hello,I was wondering if it is better to have your speaker cabinet on the floor or to have it raised up. In my experience, I can usually hear my self acoustically (sound should come from you, not the amp) so I leave my cabinets on the ground as opposed to raising them up.

Joel,
It's really hard to be know what will work for you with you're bass and amp. IMHO I always prefer to have the amplifier closer to the floor but tilted back. All my cabinets have a road handle under the bottom to accomplish this. I also use a Gramma from Auralex Acoustics to help
with better definition.

Originally Posted by joel kelsey

But, is it better for the audience if the cabinet is raised up? I am talking about small to medium sized rooms with no PA support.

Once again, IMHO unless you're all audience is really close 10 ft or less from
the stage, then I'm not sure that any small cabinet, especially one on the floor projects much farther than that.

Originally Posted by joel kelsey

Almost all of my favorite local players leave there cabs on the floor and I can hear them just fine, but others (non bass players) have said there sound sometimes lacks definition.

Personally, I think that there are a lot of "Monday Morning Quarter Backs"
in the musical world that think they know what you're bass should should should sound like, even if they have little or no experience actually playing or listening to the instrument. You should let your ears be you're guide or
record it live for yourself, and listen back. l[/quote]

Originally Posted by joel kelsey

How much does speaker placement matter when it comes to the audience hearing you? I always feel I have a well defined "natural" sound with my cabinets on the floor. Would I project better raised up? Or would raising the cabinets only help if I can't hear myself. Any advice would be most helpful!
Thanks
Joel

I think that it's a trade off. Higher of the floor gets you better definition and closer to the floor gets you somewhat better bass. Chris Fitzgerald has a nice compromise worked out with an adjustable tripod and the EA VL 108's and 208's those cabinets are very good at accurately reproducing low frequencies so they don't really need to be coupled with the floor. I think that there's usually a compromise placement somewhere between the bass response of the floor and the accuracy of raising the cabinet. IMHO

Ric

[bobbykokinos]

Hey Joel!! I always go between on floor and raised up depending on venue. Luckly, the places I've played at, I've played consistantly so I know what works for each venue..

When I do big band stuff, I use 2 of the Aguilar GS112s.. Even though some people think its over kill (which, even I do), it gives the best balance of one cab on the floor and one raised enough so I can hear what I'm doing.

If I'm playing someplace small (like the Upper Room) that has an all wooden floor, I don't put the cab on the floor.. I tried it once and by the time it got about 15 feet in front of me, it was all "boom" and feedback was uncontrolable.

As far as the audience, I don't think speaker placement is enough to sweat over unless the stage is really acoustic and abnormally projects your sound or the cab is hidden in a corner somewhere. The low freqs. have a way of finding the audience whether you can hear it on stage or not. I just make sure I can hear myself and place the speaker where I'll get a minimum amount of feedback. Also, I use to cut the horn off all the way but as of lately, I've been turning it on about 1/8 - 1/4 of the way to get that definition heared in the audience.

Also, in my experience, speaker size had some to do with it.. I was running an Eden 2x8 combo until I switch to the 12s.. On stage, the volume sounded the same to me.. But, out in the audience, the 12s traveled way further. The 8s were great and had great definition but kinda defeated the purpose of having an amp if I'm the only one that was hearing it. Not saying all 8s are like this, but the Eden was

[joel kelsey]

Thanks for the feedback guys! One of the reasons why I posted this question was for the "Monday Morning QBs" (as Ric calls them) but I was also curious as to how other working players aproach there amplified sounds. Just to clarity, the music in question is acoustic jazz (trios, quartets, quintets, ect.) and the rigs in question are a realist pickup with an EA iamp 800 with an EA 1x10 cabinet or a SWR Strawberry Blonde (ugh...) and the rooms in question are small to medium with no PA (no high ceilings, no concrete, and not outside) . I usually set speakers on the floor and kick them back. I hear myself just fine, and finally after years of playing I have realized that a good bass sound comes from you, not the amp. So I EQ the amps to sound as natural as possible. THis works with the SWR (ugh..) by turning the bass and Aural Enhace down and using low volume in general. I don't have to do much with the EA rig because it already sounds great with no EQ! I always feel my natural unamplified bass sound is well "defined"(could be better of course, but thats why practice). This leads me to believe I should not have to rely on tweeking the EQ (boosting treble, ect) aside from maybe taking out some of the lows to gain amplified "definition". That being said, what is the line between "definition" in your amplified bass sound and your bass sounding like a tinny, trebly, badly amplified electric bass? If people want to hear the bass better they should listen more closely, right? I know everything is different if the band leader wants you to sound a ceratin way or if the music calls for a certain sound. I just want my bass to sound like.....................my bass when I am playing jazz. Is that so much to ask? Anyways, any additional thoughts, feedback, hatemail, and singing telegrams would help me out a lot. How do you guys approach amplification?
Joel

[bobbykokinos]

Originally Posted by joel kelsey

If people want to hear the bass better they should listen more closely, right?

I wish it were that easy.. I would make all bass players life easy.. Fact of the matter is, I'd say 85% of the people that come out to listen to us play probably cannot discern the difference between a good upright sound and a bad upright sound. They just want to hear/feel the low end. The only people I've had comment on my sound, whether it was good or bad comments, were other bass players or other jazz musicians.

Originally Posted by joel kelsey

I know everything is different if the band leader wants you to sound a ceratin way or if the music calls for a certain sound. I just want my bass to sound like.....................my bass when I am playing jazz. Is that so much to ask?

Its very funny you say this. I've played with band people that prefer me to play upright bass but like the sound of the upright when I have the amp tuned to sound more like an electric.. What sense does that make?

Originally Posted by joel kelsey

Anyways, any additional thoughts, feedback, hatemail, and singing telegrams would help me out a lot. How do you guys approach amplification?
Joel

I've been having the same concerns as you have lately about amplification. But, I've also come to terms with the fact that I will more than likely never really get the sound I want using a pickup. I would end up having to go with a mic system. There are always trade offs (mic=more feedback, pickup=less natural sound etc..). I don't think I've ever really had an "approach" to amplification other than just trying different combos of equiptment to get the sound I want (or close to it).

[Chris Fitzgerald]

The drawback to counting on the floor to increase your bass response is that every room sounds different, so it's like having a different amp in every room. When your speaker is off the floor, you are really hearing the sound of your speaker, and it doesn't vary as much from room to room. You also get the added benefit of hearing yourself better (for me, this is great for helping with intonation in noisy settings), and in many cases, the "cabinet up in the air" thing helps the drummer and front men hear more definition from the bass. While I certainly didn't invent the idea, I sure like it a lot.

[joel kelsey]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

The drawback to counting on the floor to increase your bass response is that every room sounds different, so it's like having a different amp in every room.

I never leave my speakers on the floor to get more bass response. In fact, I almost always turn the bass down on whatver amp I am using (having a realist doesn't help either). I think I leave my cabinets on the ground because I don't like having one more thing to worry about (finding a chair, stool, ect at the venue as well as more to schlep). In college I played in lots of crappy halls and always raised my cabinets so I could hear myself better. I still do this today when I can't hear myself.

Can one be heard from further away with his or her cabinet raised up no matter what room?

Thanks again for everyone's input
Joel

[JeffKissell]

Hey Joel,
I play in a R&B/blues band with two electric guitars, drums, and a dynamite singer. The bass is a NS laminated Cleveland with a realist. It's a great sounding bass. The amp is a ClarusIII into a Bergantino HT112. I almost always leave it on the floor. I have the Clarus running with a cut to the bass side of the EQ, and the high pass set around 12:00 (70-80 hz?) It's not completely natural sounding on it's own, but then again if I were playing alone I wouldn't need an amp. When everyone is slammin' I definitely don't sound all that much like a URB, but the second the volume comes down, it sounds pretty much like my bass. I think the qualities that make a URB sound like a URB are easily buried/destroyed by the volume of those around you. I've been lucky and bull headed about overall volume and dynamics with this band (the singer is DEFINITELY with me on this one!) and I have to say they've been very responsive. It definitely sounds better when we play quieter. We have been practicing with tiny amps and drums and no bass amp or PA lately, and it's a real eye opener to the guitar operators who are used to crankin' it. They have to actually listen for a change. I think they are finally getting it that volume does NOT equal intensity or groove or funkiness. What they need is in their hands, not their amps. Part of the learning process for amplifing an upright is having the strength to say this is the volume I'm playing at and if you can't hear me then you can turn down. FWIW
-J

[fish slapper]

"When everyone is slammin' I definitely don't sound all that much like a URB, but the second the volume comes down, it sounds pretty much like my bass. I think the qualities that make a URB sound like a URB are easily buried/destroyed by the volume of those around you."

Defenately my experience as well. I play in a "Jazz" combo and try desperately to keep things at a lower volume level and my Clarus III can be dialed to sound very natural. Lately we've added a couple of Blues numbers and the volume goes up significantly then. I crank the Clarus and the "naturalness" goes out the window. As a matter of fact, I've been tempted to bring a slab and just play electric for the blues numbers.

[Fred W]

It's always the room. Some resonate, some are so dry they suck the low end out, some are echo chambers (the worst). Sometimes raising the speaker can help in the boomy rooms. Often you can get an advance clue by listening to conversations (sound not content) and hear what frequencies predominate.

[seamonkey]

If you ever have any spare quiet set up time, here's something you can try. Put your speaker out in the audience on a chair for a target listener. play a recording of your bass. Then go to your setup area on stage. Put your head close to the floor and listen. Then try different heights, and if your lucky, different stage locations. When it sounds like you want it to sound, that's where you should place your speaker.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by fish slapper

"When everyone is slammin' I definitely don't sound all that much like a URB, but the second the volume comes down, it sounds pretty much like my bass. I think the qualities that make a URB sound like a URB are easily buried/destroyed by the volume of those around you."

Defenately my experience as well. I play in a "Jazz" combo and try desperately to keep things at a lower volume level and my Clarus III can be dialed to sound very natural. Lately we've added a couple of Blues numbers and the volume goes up significantly then. I crank the Clarus and the "naturalness" goes out the window. As a matter of fact, I've been tempted to bring a slab and just play electric for the blues numbers.

I think what happens, is that when you turn the bass up past a moderate level of amplification, the pre amp begins to morph the sound for some reason and take over the tone quality (timber) of the instrument. It seems to happen somewhere between 4 and 5 on standard tone controls. Walter Woods solved this problem on the MI 100-8's by using switches that cut
the treble and bass eq by 10db.

Ric

[dfp]

if you are sending the sound-person a post EQ signal, it matters a lot where you're amp is. on the floor, you'll be sending lots of highs to compensate for the boom you're hearing on stage... i have better luck putting my amp on a chair or stool, i can hear myself better, and the house gets a better sound from me that way too.

[joel kelsey]

Originally Posted by Dave Peeples

if you are sending the sound-person a post EQ signal, it matters a lot where you're amp is. on the floor, you'll be sending lots of highs to compensate for the boom you're hearing on stage... i have better luck putting my amp on a chair or stool, i can hear myself better, and the house gets a better sound from me that way too.

Thanks for the reply,

I recently did a live recording on EB with the post EQ signal, and the bass sound on the recording was much different than the live sound. The recorded sound had much more high end and less low end than the room sound.

What about DB without a PA? How much does speaker placement affect the sound the audience hears (no PA)? For example, if I were to turn the highs up and the lows down with the speaker on the floor, would the sound out in the room have a lot highs in it, even if the stage sound did not?

Thanks again,
Joel

[gp_bass]

My preamp (Schertler Pre IIA) has both a post-eq and a "dry", non-eq'd out. I send the wet to my amp and the dry to the PA, which can then be tweaked by the soundman.

Depending on your preamp, this may not be an option.
Depending on your soundman, this may not be a good idea.