summer festival mics

[fingers]

I'm starting to get a bunch of outdoor festival gigs lined up this summer. They vary in size from smaller neighborhood things to the Taste of Chicago. Often the smaller fests (both the soundmen and the mic cabinets) are not really prepared to handle DB.

Because of this I always throw a mic in my bag. In the past I've used...

my K&K Golden Bullet - ok sound but usually need some pickup support

an AKG C1000s wrapped in a towel behind the tailpiece - good sound but a little feedback prone depending on monitors and such. I'm also a worried about marring the finish.

SM 57 and SM 58 with varying mounting methods. Good growl but I can never get the size of the sound I want.

I know Chris likes the Beta 57. Currently I don't have one of those in my studio but I could get one.

I also know people have talked about the AMT stuff. Truthfully it is a little pricey and I'd like to use something I already have.

The BIG question is should I try a Beta 52. It is marketed as a kick drum mic but I have a friend who swears by them for DB.

[flatback]

Originally Posted by fingers

I'm starting to get a bunch of outdoor festival gigs lined up this summer. They vary in size from smaller neighborhood things to the Taste of Chicago. Often the smaller fests (both the soundmen and the mic cabinets) are not really prepared to handle DB.

Because of this I always throw a mic in my bag. In the past I've used...

my K&K Golden Bullet - ok sound but usually need some pickup support

an AKG C1000s wrapped in a towel behind the tailpiece - good sound but a little feedback prone depending on monitors and such. I'm also a worried about marring the finish.

SM 57 and SM 58 with varying mounting methods. Good growl but I can never get the size of the sound I want.

I know Chris likes the Beta 57. Currently I don't have one of those in my studio but I could get one.

I also know people have talked about the AMT stuff. Truthfully it is a little pricey and I'd like to use something I already have.

The BIG question is should I try a Beta 52. It is marketed as a kick drum mic but I have a friend who swears by them for DB.

I would stick with the Dynamic thing. Beyer is good and warm, Sennheiser or the Shure Beta 57. I am not convinced about the extended low range Dynamics, the ones I've tried seem to be ...different... the Vocal type Dynamics do a great job( they narrow the range into something really usable). I am using a cheap Beyer right now and it is great fat not boomy but adds a a lot of just the right amount to the sound.
As I've said earlier (Idea came from Uncle Toad and ED FU) the flat fronted Senn 609 or 906 seem like they might be a great choice.
One note, I'm finding that shock mounting makes a big difference (although Dynamics have internal isolation) a whole lot of vibration can be transfered into a mic thru a mount on the bass. I use an ExplorerAudio H clamp and when I have a mini on there a lot of unusable and boomy feedbacky sound can come thru the mount if I'm not really caeful about how I mount it. The Dynamic vocal mics (or Instrument ie 906) with the vibration absorbing stuff in the handle makes a big difference.
best of luck.

[fingers]

I started using the AKG C-1000 (condenser) when I did a gig at a concert hall and the sound man was using them as drum overheads. I had reasonably good luck. There was one gig though where the volume was a little out of control were feedback was an issue.

Maybe I'll do a back to back to back comparison like Chris did. BTW Chris that was very helpful and got me thinking. Thanks.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Marc - you're welcome. I never got around to trying the Beyer mics, and I'd kind of like to do that this summer, since the Beta 57 is scarring the top of my bass a bit when I'm too lazy to take it off before putting it in the case. I still like the sound of the Beta, I just always mix a little pickup in with it.

[Michael Case]

So I guess you're done with the easy set-up of just a pick-up and amp?

[fingers]

I'm sticking with that setup. It is doing my mind wonders as far as concentrating on my playing instead of my setup.

I always bring an extra mic when I work in rooms or outdoor venues that have me going into a pa. The mic goes straight into the pa. I'm just try to decide what mic. I have found that most sound guys just have a big pile of SM58s. These are ok but without time to do some kind of special mount (like chris') they are lacking imho.

In these situations the amp just acts as a stage monitor.

[Michael Case]

I see, do you trust a sound guy to deliver your sound through a mic? That seems dicey to me.

[fingers]

No.

In college I worked as a sound man myself and engineer at a studio now so I have a good idea of what they can do wrong. I used to try for a fool proof signal via pickups, preamps etc. but truthfully no matter what I do they seem to find a way to mess it up. I guess I'm hitting the easy button yet again. Most sound men take a line out from the amp anyway.

This is the first festival season that I've tried to be this stripped down. We'll see how it goes.

[M Ramsey]

I've seen these mics used at major bluegrass festivals, used on almost every bass coming across the stage with good results. Sometimes, the sad part is the fact that lots of sound companies don't have much (if any) experience micing an upright bass. They really like pickups (plug it in, yeah, there's the signal, we're good to go) and mics actually can bring the full flavor of the instrument.

I've used a Beta 52 for several years, but differently. I would use the pickup signal (either Realist or Bass Max) and send that to my trusty little GK MB150 and THEN use the Beta 52 to mic the amp.

Once, while playing a Johnny Appleseed play for a school function (about 1000 4th-6th graders, in a nice auditorium with a really good PA) I used just the Beta 52. But, I had my son (terrific set of ears) to go out front during sound check to help with the sound. It was really big and smooth.

I know a live sound engineer (for radio, and he knows what he's doing) who prefers the Beta 52 over the AKG D112 (?) since it has a larger diaphragm to capture the larger waves produced by the upright bass.

Maybe this info will help,

[larry]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

I see, do you trust a sound guy to deliver your sound through a mic? That seems dicey to me.

I've had sound men screw up direct signals way more often. Including a radio gig where I begged him to mic it and he said "no, trust me". Well, I heard a recording and threw up.

Giving the sound man the only option of a good dynamic mic will be the most reliable. Try it yourself - record your bass with virtually any decent dynamic (Shure SM57, whatever) and compare it to a direct signal. Unless you have a pickup designed by Jesus, I'll wager you the mic sounds way better.

[fingers]

Thanks Mike. That is a great review. My friend had told me the same thing about the the Beta 52 having a larger diaphragm. He feels like it is better suited to bass than vocal dymanic mics.

Larry. I've had the same experience with direct stuff. They treat it like a chop. As soon as the sound guy sends all the lows to the subs or whatever you get tons of howling feedback and the bass gets almost unplayable without stuffing towels and s*** behind the tailpiece and muting the after length of the strings. I'm sick of that... grrr.

(deep breath)

I figure a signal through a mic has less possibilities and will force the sound man to just turn up the volume and leave well enough alone.

I'm going to do a Chris Fitzgerald style comparison with a few different mics. If my playing is not embarrasing I'll post them.

[Michael Case]

I'm nervous, I've got a gig with a singer songwriter in a NYC club Sunday and don't know what I should do in terms of sound. I think I'll take the word of others here and use a dynamic mic through the PA at this club. I'm not sure how much experience this sound guy has with upright bass.

[larry]

Originally Posted by fingers

I'm going to do a Chris Fitzgerald style comparison with a few different mics. If my playing is not embarrasing I'll post them.

Have fun with it. There are so many mics out there, the myriad of mics and the unique sound of each bass, each players taste, etc...it boggles the mind. Plenty of good threads on some mics that are well-respected.

[charmicarmicat]

Total newbie so bear with me
1- Where do you guys place the Beta 52? Up high by the F holes or lower? I guess it's a preference thing, right?
2- I've seen folks put mics behind their tail piece. Wrapped in a towel or something like that and tied or firmly lodgeded behind the tailpiece. What's that all about?
Thanks!

[fingers]

Originally Posted by charmicarmicat

Total newbie so bear with me
1- Where do you guys place the Beta 52? Up high by the F holes or lower? I guess it's a preference thing, right?
2- I've seen folks put mics behind their tail piece. Wrapped in a towel or something like that and tied or firmly lodgeded behind the tailpiece. What's that all about?
Thanks!

The Beta 52 is heavy. My friend puts it on a stand.

I never mic the f holes. In my experience this is the worst place to put a mic. Live I always got tons of boom but not much definition. If the mic is on a stand I put it in front of the bridge about 6" out.

I've done the mic behind the tailpiece a bunch. The sound is a little beefier than on a stand. Also nothing extra to bring. Every soundman has a ton of SM58s or 57s. It is an effective way to mic a bass without mounting the mic in a more complicated way. Just wrap it up and pop it back there. The other advantage is that you don't need to worry about staying still. I know I sway a bit when I play.

[larry]

Originally Posted by charmicarmicat

2- I've seen folks put mics behind their tail piece. Wrapped in a towel or something like that and tied or firmly lodgeded behind the tailpiece. What's that all about?
Thanks!

Generally, that's going to create some weird resonances. Not saying it won't work, but it's going to be hit or miss depending on the bass, room, exact position, etc.

Best bet is on a stand pointed directly at the bass. I put my mic (Beyer M88) pointed below the bridge just off to the side of the afterlength on the soundpost side. You can use a very small mic stand. Granted, the mic doesn't move and I do, but I get much better results than trying to jam the mic in somewhere. Remember, a directional mic is, well, directional. It's response can be very uneven when the sound arrives from the sides or rear. Pointing the mic at the bass also gives you the most rejection of other instruments.

Using a mic on a stand can be a pain, but it is proabably your best bet to maximize the benefit of using a mic in the first place. I would use a small clip-on condenser again before jamming something in the tail.

[fingers]

Here is a link to the beginnings of my test.


I know the performance is so-so but we're all friends here. I wanted to illustrate the stand vs behind the tailpiece thing. So far I posted the SM58 mounted both ways. More to come.

[larry]

Originally Posted by fingers

Here is a link to the beginnings of my test.


I know the performance is so-so but we're all friends here. I wanted to illustrate the stand vs behind the tailpiece thing. So far I posted the SM58 mounted both ways. More to come.

Sounds like the mic was a little far away when on the stand. Where did you have it?

[fingers]

Originally Posted by larry

Sounds like the mic was a little far away when on the stand. Where did you have it?

about 4-6" in front of the bridge maybe slightly to the G side because if how I move when I play.

[peterpalmieri]

Yesterday I was just a spectator in this thread since I have very little experience with mics.

IMO you should be able to get a much better sound with a pick-up, in comparison to your clips. I'd either keep trying something different or try a pick-up and preamp.

Good luck!