Too much feedback.

[DaLong]

I've just been hired to play in a big band. I am using the following equipment. This is the order that the sound travels in

Bass
David Gage Realist Pickup
Sansamp Paradriver DI
Walter Woods MP400
Bergantino NV610

The problem is that I have to play at high volumes because we play in huge event halls and dance rooms.
I can't get within 7 feet of my amp before it starts feeding back. When it is not feeding back, the notes have too much sustain and balloon out of control. HELP! On stage, there is not enough room for me to be so far from my gear. What do I do? Everything seems to be fine, it doesn't feedback with my electric and with other people's bass. I think that it must be the Realist. I have had it since 2001 so maybe it is a little old. Any ideas on how to overcome this? Anyone else have this problem with the realist? What is a better alternative?

[hensonbass]

Here's a few things you might try:

1. Easy - Put a towel or a piece of foam between the tailpiece and the top of the bass to prevent excessive vibration. Also, mute the after-length of the strings below the bridge. You can also set your bass endpin on some foam to lessen the floor vibration from your HUGE cabinet. Move your cabinet in a way that lessens the stage vibration - maybe lift the cab off the ground.

2. Not so easy - Consider getting a high-pass filter that sometimes comes on amps such as the Acoustic Image or getting one from Fdeck here on talkbass:

http://personalpages.tds.net/~fdeck/bass/hpfpre.htm

Since you have a great amp already I would recommend this high pass filter to help control the rumbling/howling that you can get with a Realist PU.

You might also consider switching to a Fishman Full-circle PU that might have more gain before feedback with your bass.

In all honestly you are fighting the laws of physics with your set-up (6x10 bass cab facing the back of a double bass). If you have to play that loud you should really be in the house PA and then use your amp to monitor yourself with less volume. If there is no PA then consider putting that cab in front of you and using something smaller to monitor with.

And if all else fails you could play with a bass guitar and not have to worry about it at all because once the upright gets too loud it loses the quality of tone that one normally wants from it and becomes something else -

[mstclairmiller]

I used to have terrible feedback until I had to get a new bridge fitted. The feedback stopped! My old bridge wasn't perfectly fitted to the top of the bass, and this seems to have been the problem. What is is about other people's basses that they don't feedback?

As Hensonbass notes, you shouldn't have to fill a huge event hall from the backline. Just have enough from the amp so folks on the stage can hear you. Let the FoH do the rest.

[kwd]

I concur with the other responses. I finally ditched my Realist in favor of a bridge wing mounted pickup. The Realist picks up too much vibration from other sources and results in a very unpleasing sound. In my experience it was always a function of the drummer and my position relative to the drummer. In a big band, you can't expect a drummer to lower their volume as they're driving the band. If you're going to stick with The Realist, see if you can scare up on of those plexiglass shields.

I did a lot of reading and experimenting when I had this problem. After I went to the other pickup, I found that rolling off the gain on my preamp DI improved the sound. So, I think my problem wasn't all feedback, some it was distortion from too much gain. You might want to experiment with that by either plugging into your preamp input or effects loop with little or no gain.

I've been able to address most of the problem by switching the pickup and by utilizing the notch filter to null out problem notes (usually an A natural) and using the phase inversion feature. I think I could get all the way there with a HPF.

[Uncletoad]

I don't understand the value of the sansamp in this context. It's not adding anything to the tone you need. It could be making the feedback worse. Try living without it.

The realist can't do loud volumes well at all so you may want to reconsider the pickup.

The 610 is a pretty huge box for string bass. Usually smaller cabinets can get you louder overall than larger ones with a string bass.

If you feel you need a preamp try the fdeck or a Fishman Pro Platinum. Consider the Fishman Full Circle as a pickup instead of what you are using.

Look at smaller boxes for your sound like EA or Berg. Let the house sound do the house sound. If there is no house sound you don't need all that rig to get over a trumpet section. Smaller cabinets will serve you much better than you think.

If there is FOH but you aren't allowed in it then put your cabinet out in front of your bass and you can go as loud as you want. You'll hear what you need bouncing around the room enough to play well.

That amp may not be powerful enough to drive that cabinet properly though. It's going to go into distortion before it drives that box to its best loud sound. Smaller more efficient cabinets will get the best out of that Woods head.

And as usual I'll dredge up this post copied several times when people don't want to use the search function.

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

I have played ridiculously loud in small and large venues with huge rock bands using my Plywood Cleveland bass mixed Gut/Steel strings and a Full Circle pickup into an AI Focus 2RIII and Euphonic Audio VL208. It mananges to still sound like a string bass too.

Several Considerations;

1. The onstage bass volume should be low, feel the low end and presence of the bass through the PA.
2. Use the onstage system with mids and highs only as a personal monitor to stay in tune.
3. Dial in the front of house sound without any on stage sound whatsoever and then turn up your rig just enough to play in tune when everything else kicks in.
4. Try to get whatever personal monitors you use up off the floor near your ear and away from the body of the bass.
5. Stay well behind the main speakers and well away from the subs.
6. Keep the bass out of the floor wedges and stay as far away from any on stage speakers as you can.
7. Use the rubber stopper on the endpin and don't stick the pin directly into the floor.
8. Experiment with phase reversal on the preamp.
9. Experiment with high pass filters on the preamp.
10. Stay away from compressors.
11. Place a foam wedge or towel between the body of the bass and the tailpiece if you still have feedback.
12. Weave a strip of velcro through the afterlength of the strings between the bridge and tail piece.
13. When all else fails use parametric EQ to dial out the offending frequencies. A couple bands should be enough. If not you've got a source problem.

[DaLong]

I am on the fence about a new pickup but I think that it is inevitable. The thing I hate about that Band is that the leader refuses to let me play through the PA. I have heard about people putting those older style metal and rubber mutes on inorder to get rid of some of the overtones. I have used my old bagend D10 but it couldn't get loud enough. Does the Fishman work well in small venues. Is there a downside to having one Full circle and a robertson composite adjuster? Thanks for the "feedback"

[reedo35]

Originally Posted by DaLong

Is there a downside to having one Full circle and a robertson composite adjuster? Thanks for the "feedback"

The full Circle pup comes with with a duplicate adjustor for the other side. I don't recommend mixing adjustors.

[salcott]

"the leader refuses to let me play through the PA"
I've never been in a situation where a 610 cabinet would be appropriate or even usable with upright. I think that's way too much speaker. You have a huge mass of sound coming at the bass that just envelops it. A smaller cab will give you a more focussed, controllable sound. Given the above quote from the leader, you don't need to be very loud at all. I'd get a Wizzy 12 or equivalent to be able to hear myself and be done with it. Last time I played a big band gig, I used a GK 112 combo amp (never can remember the model #, but you know which one I mean) with no problem.
The FC pickup is a good idea as well.

[Jazzdogg]

Uncle Toad,

Please explain more about the effect a compressor has on DB feedback.

[DaLong]

Originally Posted by salcott

"the leader refuses to let me play through the PA"
I've never been in a situation where a 610 cabinet would be appropriate or even usable with upright. I think that's way too much speaker. You have a huge mass of sound coming at the bass that just envelops it. A smaller cab will give you a more focussed, controllable sound. Given the above quote from the leader, you don't need to be very loud at all. I'd get a Wizzy 12 or equivalent to be able to hear myself and be done with it. Last time I played a big band gig, I used a GK 112 combo amp (never can remember the model #, but you know which one I mean) with no problem.
The FC pickup is a good idea as well.

The 610 is almost too much speaker, but the trade off is that you really "feel it" I got the berg because of another band I am in. I am going to rehearsal this Thursday with the intention of figuring out when setup will be the best, my placement, the speakers, placement, what volume i truly need to be. I do like the idea of putting it infront of me and using another speaker as a monitor, that out work great I think. (added bonus, it would hide the piano player.) I used to own the GK150E And it was perfect for using as a monitor.

This begs the question: How did the original guys ie Walter Paige and Jimmy Blanton do it before speakers and PA's and pickups and all of that?

[reedo35]

Originally Posted by DaLong

This begs the question: How did the original guys ie Walter Paige and Jimmy Blanton do it before speakers and PA's and pickups and all of that?

Gut Strings, High String height, and a cannon of a Bass! (They also had microphones in the 30's and 40's too.

[Johnny Atomic]

Maybe use what you got, but w/ an additional smaller speaker (like your bag end 2x10)aimed at you for monitoring, and the 610 aimed away from the bass and into the room?????

[salcott]

Regarding the days of Walter Page and Jimmy Blanton, one important factor to remember is that brass and woodwind instruments have evolved in a way that strings have not. Today's wind instruments can produce much more volume with the same effort compared to 50-60 years ago. As a small example, a trombone considered to be a bass trombone in 1940 would be suitable to use to play lead today by many players. Same with trumpets; bores are bigger, mouthpieces are deeper, etc. Saxes are louder as well. Also, in general, nobody was miked except vocalists and soloists. The bands also played dynamics other than as loud as possible. Bass players often stood down front as well. A friend who played with Woody Herman pre amplifier era told me when the band played soft, he dug in as much as he could, and when it was roaring, he took it easy.

[mstclairmiller]

I remember reading about an old timer saying that he got to the gig early and found the loudest spot on the bandstand - normally where he could put his spike over a joist so that the vibrations from the bass went through the stage and gave him an edge.

I have said elsewhere that I have seen an MB150 sound great without a DI with a 12 piece band, the horns going through the PA. Sounds crap on stage, but big and fat out front (not loud, but loud enough).

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by salcott

A friend who played with Woody Herman pre amplifier era told me when the band played soft, he dug in as much as he could, and when it was roaring, he took it easy.

Now that's a golden tip there.

[DaLong]

I had a gig with this band over the weekend. I replaced the pickup. (Realist's only last so long before they junk out) That made the biggest difference. I also repositioned the amp so that I could hear it just well enough to make sure I was in tune but lound out in the house. Thanks for all of the advice. FYI The gig went really well and was the best I even heard the band play.

[KentuckyJim]

Over the last 5 or so years I've been playing LOUD upright bass...not good playing, but loud playing. I've found the key to playing loud is to have an instrument that sound bad acousticly, I play a KingDoubleBass that's about 8 years old and has a ton of sparkle paint on it and an over sized sound post that keeps the top from vibrating too much. I have tried every pick-up/amp combo around and I've found the K&K Rockabilly set up with an Acoustic Image amp through any combination of 10" speakers lets you get loud!!!

Depending on the room I may have to dampen the tailpiece a bit, I usually wedge my wallet down in between. This is the best, loud, rock, swing, rock-a-billy stage set-up I've ever had.

These days, I'm looking to figure out how to do the opposite. I bought a Phil Jones suitcase, a 4/4 size bass and a Realist pick-up and I'm trying to play very small clubs and not over-power the other guys.

So, in short, 10" speakers, K&K set-up and a bass that sounds like ass but plays great. You'll be a happy man on tour.

[Adrian Cho]

Originally Posted by DaLong

I
Bass
David Gage Realist Pickup
Sansamp Paradriver DI
Walter Woods MP400
Bergantino NV610

I'm not at all surprised that you're getting feedback. As others have pointed out, I'm not sure why you would want the Sansamp in there. What does it add? A 6 x 10 cab? That's absolutely nuts. I play with a 1 x 10 with a band that can get extremely loud at times and right now we're rehearsing for a show and at times we have 22-pieces in the group (5 saxes, 5 trumpets, 4 bones, tuba, 2 French horns, 5 rhythm).

Just because you're playing in a huge hall does not mean you should be using a 6 x 10. If you are trying to be heard everywhere in the hall using that approach then it must be insanely booming on the stage.

[shwashwa]

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

I'm not at all surprised that you're getting feedback. As others have pointed out, I'm not sure why you would want the Sansamp in there. What does it add? A 6 x 10 cab? That's absolutely nuts. I play with a 1 x 10 with a band that can get extremely loud at times and right now we're rehearsing for a show and at times we have 22-pieces in the group (5 saxes, 5 trumpets, 4 bones, tuba, 2 French horns, 5 rhythm).

Just because you're playing in a huge hall does not mean you should be using a 6 x 10. If you are trying to be heard everywhere in the hall using that approach then it must be insanely booming on the stage.

the sans amp adds impedance matching, although with the walter woods i'm not sure you'd need it. i'm not sure of the input specs on the woods, but the origional poster has the sans amp para driver, not the bass driver. the para driver is designed for piezo pickups and has a sweepable mid (which the woods also has, so it may be redundant). i have one and it's very good for upright bass. one post in the thread suggests that you get rid of the para driver and replace it with the fishman, but that doesnt make any sense either. they're essentially the same type of preamp. maybe he thought it was the bass driver, which would be inappropriate. i switch between the para driver and the fishman pro platinum, a raven labs, and sometimes an avalon u5. (i'm preamp crazy.) they all have high impedance inputs, but i wish the para driver had a high pass filter. if it did, that would be the only one i'd use.
(oh yeah, i also have a pz pre. it sounds just ok, but it's a blender with 2 high impedance inputs, unlike my raven labs which has one high and one low, and it has a high pass filter with 2 settings. i wish the high pass filter were sweepable like the fishman, but so far it seems pretty useful. i keep it flat, turn on the high pass filter, and blend 2 pickups into my walter woods and then eq the mids on the woods. )

[Marc Piane]

I use the bass driver with my AI/EA rig and really like it. I feel like it adds a little beef and grit. The AI has a HPF. I use the Fishman with my GK mostly for the HPF and phase switch.

I wish somebody had told me years ago how valuable the HPF and phase switch are at taming feedback. I could have saved a bunch of money on foam and towels.