Unidirectional Trinity

PaulKing · #1 10-10-2005, 12:07 PM

I'm getting on nicely with my K+K Bass Max / Golden Trinity.
Experimentation is the only way to find the right spot for the mic.
But at the same time I want to understand what's going on with it.

The diagram on Bob's website shows a target pattern, with am asymmetrical blob in it, presumably showing that the mic is sensitive in one 'direction' only. But how does that diagram relate to the mic?
Is it sensitive forwards (ie away from the top of the mic) or to one side (in which case which side?)

K+K recommend NOT pointing the mic directly at the f-hole. I certainly get the most volume if I do this, but also too much reverb if I go too close. Presuming the sound waves are largely travelling directly out from the f-hole, does that mean the sound waves are too violent for the mic, and I'm risking damage?

And if the mic is placed perpendicular to the direction of the sound waves, how does that affect the sound that's picked up (other than reducing volume)?

All of which may be inconsequential to how I place the mic, but might help me understand why it works.

Looking forward to sharing your expertise folks.
Ta
Paul

PaulKing · #2 10-10-2005, 12:09 PM

PS, I find pointing it at the upper circle on the end of the f-hole gives a really nice fat sound.

bolo · #3 10-10-2005, 02:00 PM

Paul, I think the recommendation to not place a mic like the GT directly in front of the f-hole is primarily because many people feel you tend to get a real boomy, woofy sound there. You probably get lots of gain and lots of low end, but some would argue it’s lacking in things like fingerboard sounds (pleasing to some), the occasional string buzz, and other natural “components” of the overall sound of your bass. I don't think you risk damaging the mic by placing it over the f-hole, but I suppose I could be wrong.

And I think the polar pattern diagram you referred to for the Golden Trinity represents its forward sensitivity, not to one side. But maybe I'm all wet ... If so, Bob G. will probably read this and straighten me out (let's hope!).

**Adrian Cho** · #4 10-11-2005, 10:29 AM

The f-hole is generally not the place to get the natural sound sound of the bass and does tend to be boomy. However some people use it with success to give some warmth to an electric-sounding pickup. For me it's the other way. My pickup (Vektor) is plenty warm and fat but lacks some clarity and the mic (an AMT over the top of the bass close to the fingerboard) gives it some clarity and presence.

PaulKing · #5 10-11-2005, 12:03 PM

Cheers guys, I'm listening and learning.
Thanks

fingers · #6 10-11-2005, 12:07 PM

I used to put that mic over the f-hole but I recently tried it mounted on the tailpiece with the mic between the feet of the bridge. Man, I'm getting the best sound yet. I point the front of the mic straight up. I find that not having it pointed at the top helps with feedback.

I think that there is so much sound near the top of the bass or the f-holes that the mic is bound the pick up lots of sound. The trick is to experiment like crazy. Try the mic in a bunch of places with a bunch of different eq settings until you find one you are happy with and one that you can customize to different rooms with the eq on your amp.

PaulKing · #7 10-11-2005, 01:20 PM

Right, gonna give that a go...
Thanks

bolo · #8 10-11-2005, 02:06 PM

You said it well fingers. "Experiment like crazy!"

For example, change the distance of the mic from the table ...

Change the angle of the mic ... tilted up or down, right or left, at different angles ...

Left side of the bass ... right side ... center ...

Sometimes even a small adjustment in these areas can result in a big change in the sound.

Yes, I agree with fingers (again!), working around the bridge instead of the f-hole can add more pizz and more "pluck."

Then, once you get that all figured out, go get yourself one of them thar AMT mics, where you can move the clamp all around the outside of the bass! I have owned one for months, and I am STILL experimenting, although I do have a few favorite sweet spots.

Paul, it looks like your profile is set up to not receive emails. No big deal, but I was going to offer to send you a small document that I compiled with ideas from various TB'ers about where they like to place their mic. And I have used it myself as a suggested set of starting points for my experiments.

Some of the locations won't apply with the Golden Trinity, since you don't have a clamp you can move all around like the AMT, and the gooseneck on the K&K only stretches so far.

But if you are interested, just send me a PM with your email address, and I can send you the document.

Bob Gollihur · #9 10-11-2005, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulKing

I'm getting on nicely with my K+K Bass Max / Golden Trinity.
Experimentation is the only way to find the right spot for the mic.
But at the same time I want to understand what's going on with it.

The diagram on Bob's website shows a target pattern, with am asymmetrical blob in it, presumably showing that the mic is sensitive in one 'direction' only. But how does that diagram relate to the mic?
Is it sensitive forwards (ie away from the top of the mic) or to one side (in which case which side?)

K+K recommend NOT pointing the mic directly at the f-hole. I certainly get the most volume if I do this, but also too much reverb if I go too close. Presuming the sound waves are largely travelling directly out from the f-hole, does that mean the sound waves are too violent for the mic, and I'm risking damage?

And if the mic is placed perpendicular to the direction of the sound waves, how does that affect the sound that's picked up (other than reducing volume)?

All of which may be inconsequential to how I place the mic, but might help me understand why it works.

Looking forward to sharing your expertise folks.
Ta
Paul

Yes, I recommend (I wrote the instructions) against pointing it at the f-hole, as the burst of sound just overwhelms the signal chain and just doesn't sound natural - WHOOOMPPFF! I find the most pleasing position for the highest signal/noise ratio is in front of an f-hole with the mic tilted just slight inwards. However, if volumes are not high (and so you don't need the maximum s/n ratio) do experiment! I like aiming it up towards the end of the fingerboard for a natural and airy sound. You're certainly not restricted to the bridge mounting, you can stick a hunk of Duallock (industrial velcro) anywhere to anchor the gooseneck to aim it plenty of other places. I originally auditioned this mic and the others K&K sent using a pair of closed headphones, which are great for experiencing the effects of different locations.

drurb · #10 10-11-2005, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bolo

And I think the polar pattern diagram you referred to for the Golden Trinity represents its forward sensitivity, not to one side. But maybe I'm all wet ... If so, Bob G. will probably read this and straighten me out (let's hope!).

You are correct.

PaulKing · #11 10-12-2005, 06:23 AM

Thanks so much all, Bob included.
I know what I'll be doing tonight then.
And I always wonderd why the lead to the gooseneck was so much longer than the lead to the piezo (in the Bass Max/Trinity combo) ... so you can move it around, right.

Airy sound... yeah, that's what I'm missing. Have to stop going for volume I guess, less is more and stuff....

Cheers.

Ooh, and I'll update my profile then, e-mail communication welcome and appreciated.

Paul

PaulKing · #12 10-14-2005, 03:22 AM

Thanks for all advice. Spent a good couple of hours messing about, I go for the 'around the bridge' option. Between the feet, pointing up, mid-way between board and arch seems safest - tho got a surprisingly good sound by pointing it straight at top surface of bridge just below strings (potential for a bit too much finger noise here though ... I got it just right but then after 1 fantastic recording I could never quite get it back where it sounded best... damn!).

Now got nice pizz sound, air and wood, not too distant and reverby, though lacking a bit of presence and bottom still. A wee bit more playing about needed. I want everything!

Prompted me to open up the K+K pre-amp again, and ease off everything. Bass-max gain is now down to zero, low end knocked back, and volume at 2 or 3 against max for mic.

All sounds much more lifelike ... nearly there.

Big downer though ... ran into nasty trouble with my gooseneck - Bob, I'll mail ya!

PaulKing · #13 10-14-2005, 11:43 AM

hopefully little problem fixed in a jiffy.

bolo · #14 10-17-2005, 10:49 AM

Paul, glad you are getting good results w/ your mic!

You had a really good idea in one of your emails that I thought was worth posting here, if you don't mind.

Namely, if you are using headphones to experiment with various mic placements, but your acoustic sound bleeds through too much, you can try recording to your PC or whatever device, and then listen to the sound on playback (over & over ...) as you try different spots for the mic.

Thanks for the suggestion!