Upright amplification on a Big Stage???

[Lorenzo]

Hey folks....maybe someone can help me with this.

Up until now I've been real happy playing small to med sized rooms with my current upright setup. I'm playing an Upton bass through a MarkBass Little MarkII head into an EA Wizzy 12 cab. The tone is great. Fat, warm, and clean.

Ahhhhhh, but now I have two festival gigs coming up this fall where I'll be outdoors on a festival type big stage. I know I won't be able to use my MarkBass into EA Wizzy setup. I'm sure some of you guys have big stage experience. What's my best plan of attack here? Let the soundman take a direct out and hope he knows how to deal with the freqs of an upright? Look into buying a larger rig (maybe a 4x10)? As always, any suggestions are deeply appreciated.

Lorenzo

[bolo]

Originally Posted by Lorenzo

What's my best plan of attack here? Let the soundman take a direct out and hope he knows how to deal with the freqs of an upright?

Hi Lorenzo.

Disclaimer - I don't have worlds of experience with this. But some. So IMO ...

The short answer is "yes." Don't go out and buy a 4x10. Have the sound tech take a direct out from your amp to the PA.

If the piezo p/u squeaks w/ finger noise, hopefully he'll pull out some highs. If he has a good ear, he might try applying a high pass filter, or shaping the mids and low-mids. Oh to be so lucky ...

If the line out on your amp has a pre-EQ post-EQ option, that's another variable we can discuss.

I would suggest you set up and use your Markbass + EA rig to help hear yourself on stage. Think of it as a personal monitor, with a little bit to spread to your bandmates.

If they run the bass into the monitors to help the rest of the band hear you, don't stand with your bass too close to the monitors.

What kind of band and music is it? Ever used a mic on stage?

I'm sure others will chime in to build on this, tear it down, or mention things I have not thought of.

And congrats on getting the big gigs.

[bassdaddyfive]

I supplied the FOH with a signal from my Fishman Pro Plat pre. from the balanced out. The line out to my EA amp. I also use two Wizzy 12 cabs. I go with a K&K pickup.

[plangentmusic]

The Mark has a line out. FOr festivals you'll be going though the P.A.anyway, so your map and monitor should cover it, though 2 10's or 12's would be better. I find either the Hartke or Bergantino gives a nice clean uncolored sound for upright.

[Stick_Player]

I have two festival gigs coming up this fall where I'll be outdoors on a festival type big stage.

Are the other band members increasing their amplification?

Check and see if the sound company is supplying stage monitors or bass amplification and if so use those to 'spread' your sound.

I use the Fishman Platinum Pro EQ. It has that handy phase switch that REALLY helps with feedback for those louder gigs.

[Ed Fuqua]

That's the wrong way to go, you don't want to make the sound on the stand louder, you want to put the sound you usually have out into the house. That's the sound person's job.

Think about making a speech. You want to talk, but you want everyone to hear you. So you speak in your normal speaking voice and use a microphone to get your voice out into the house. You don't SCREAM into the microphone.

If possible, I like to put a mic on the instrument rather than taking a line out. But sometimes that's not possible.

[bolo]

Originally Posted by bassdaddyfive

I also use two Wizzy 12 cabs.

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

... 2 10's or 12's would be better.

I also use a Wizzy M-line on top of a regular Wizzy 12 for larger stages and outdoor gigs. Works well with my upright and my Lakland JO 5.

Bottom line ... let the PA do the heavy lifting and use it and not your stage amp to get your sound out into the audience.

[bolo]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

That's the wrong way to go, you don't want to make the sound on the stand louder, you want to put the sound you usually have out into the house. That's the sound person's job.

Think about making a speech. You want to talk, but you want everyone to hear you. So you speak in your normal speaking voice and use a microphone to get your voice out into the house. You don't SCREAM into the microphone.

If possible, I like to put a mic on the instrument rather than taking a line out. But sometimes that's not possible.

Dig. That's a great analogy. I use a mic on every amplified gig, large or small, even if it justs goes to my amp, no PA.

That's why I asked

Originally Posted by bolo

What kind of band and music is it? Ever used a mic on stage?

We've given lorenzo some things to think about, I hope.

[Stick_Player]

That's a great analogy.

It is indeed. However... if you are on a large outdoor 'festival' size stage with only one reflective surface (the floor), it is nice to have some monitors set about for each musician.

I use a mic on every amplified gig, large or small, even if it justs goes to my amp, no PA.

So no bass to the mains?

[bolo]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

However... if you are on a large outdoor 'festival' size stage with only one reflective surface (the floor), it is nice to have some monitors set about for each musician.

Sure. But if your amplified bass gets too close to those monitors, or if the bass signal in the monitors is too hot, it create can problems. I guess that's why I warned " .. don't stand with your bass too close to the monitors."

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

So no bass to the mains?

Sorry, I wasn't entirely clear perhaps.

Usually on my gigs, there is no PA. So I run a mic and if needed a pickup to my amp.

But if there is a PA, yes I like to have my bass in the mains. Typically for me the PA gets the blended mic + pickup from the direct out on my amp, post-EQ. I also have a 2-channel preamp / mixer that gives me the option of sending the house just the mic channel, and still hearing the blended mix thru my amp, for those "high profile" gigs.

[Ed Fuqua]

I dunno, Stick. I always try to set up so that the band can hear each other acoustically, THEN add amplification, THEN add PA for the house. Just because the stage got bigger doesn't mean you all have to set up far away from each other. I generally ask for no bass in the monitor, no drums, a little piano (since I'm generally right over the pianist's left shoulder) and some horn/singer.

[Kev2007]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I dunno, Stick. I always try to set up so that the band can hear each other acoustically, THEN add amplification, THEN add PA for the house. Just because the stage got bigger doesn't mean you all have to set up far away from each other. I generally ask for no bass in the monitor, no drums, a little piano (since I'm generally right over the pianist's left shoulder) and some horn/singer.

YES to Ed's reply. After years of fighting with feedback and sound guys (well, monitor guys) in fesitval-type stages, I finally nailed it this year, and it's worked perfectly for 5 festival dates this summer. First, take your regular rig. Your bass (hopefully) sounds good with it, and you're not fighting with a new-to-you and probably oversized backline system. They can take a D.I. from you. Next, respectfully request that there is no bass in any monitors around you. You don't need it because you have your rig, right? That's your bass monitor. I'll take a bit of keys/guitar or whatever plunkers are there in my wedge, usually no drums. What I've found is that this creates is a nice little quiet pocket for me on the stage, where, miraculously, I can hear everything and I'm not feeding back. Unfortunately, what the house does with your sound once it leaves the D.I. is out of your hands, so just worry about making music onstage and hope they know what they're doing.

Kev

[LowNote]

I have been touring and playing theatres all over the U.K with both a traditional big band and a 5-horn/3 rhythm Rat Pack show band. The difficulty in addressing your question is that the quality of the sound tech and the sound equipment varies widely, and I generally prepare for the worst.

My stage rig of choice is a late model AI Focus (equivalent to today's Clarus Plus) on top of an AI Ten2EX cabinet. Through it I play a LaScala Hybrid with a RevSolo2 pickup. I like the sound this pickup provides so don't bother with a mic. I then connect the board lead into the DI on the Focus with the switch set to Post EQ so that I can make liberal use of the Hi Pass filter to get all of the mud out before it gets to the board. This generally allows me to get a very natural, punchy sound and not the mushy dubby sound that a lot of younger sound techs want to hear. If you get the sound exactly right in your amp, and then send this (post EQ) signal to the board, you have the best chance of the bass sounding good to the audience.

I also generally set my amp up on the back corner of the drum riser behind and to my left (I'm on a separate riser to his right, between the piano and drums) and turn it diagonally so that the drummer can hear it clearly and the bass sound washes over the stage. I find the band swings harder and the time is better if the horns get a clear, locked up sound from the bass and drums. This also compensates for those situations where there are inadequate monitors, severe limitations on monitor mixes at the board, or the other musicians don't know how to ask for and get the right mix in their monitor. I also ask for some bass in the monitors in front of me, if there are any, and have never had any problems with feedback or other gremlins. The horns generally have some bass in their monitors as well and it causes no problems.

Nirvana is of course those theatres where there is an experienced and knowledgeable sound guy and tons of monitors. In those situations, I don't use an amp at all, but run my bass into the house through a Headway pre-amp with its excellent EQ and HiPass filter, and I make sure there are two monitors behind me and one in front of me (or vice versa). I can mount the headway on a spare mic stand so that if trouble really strikes, I can make adjustments on the fly, although doing so runs the risk of screwing up the mix during the performance. It is wonderful not to have to set up and carry an amp if you don't have to. I wish more of the theatres were this good!

Cheers,

Erik Hansen
Scotland

[Ric Vice]

I like the idea of getting the band in as close a proximity to each other as the setup will allow, provided the drum kit is either on a riser or at least on carpet. I also like the idea of using your own amp and cabinet, because you know what the amp does, with your bass. Sometimes you're blessed with excellent sound tecs, but that's not always the case. Unless they can isolate the bass on it's separate monitor channel then you don't want to go there, IME IMHO.
You will definitely need something like the HPF Pre, Fishman Pro Platinum or Headway EDB-1 to control the squeal and rumble. Usually, it's better to send only a mic to the house, if possible and only the pick up to your amp, if that's possible. Unless the board you're going into can load the pickup correctly, you probably don't want to send the pickup forward to the P.A..
The least expensive solution, is to use your pick up and amp for the band on the stage and a mic possibly from the sound provider FOH.

Ric

[Roger Davis]

There's a lot of good stuff here. To add my bit, I ask the sound man to go easy on the bass eq, concentrate on the middle and top and not put me through the monitors. My own backline should take care of that. And if you are a first timer, don't be scared of the seemingly unnaturally loud bass sound going into the audience. Leave it to the sound man to balance and concentrate on playing the right notes. Enjoy!

[Lorenzo]

Wow, it's great to be able to tap into you knowledgeable folks out there. That's a lot of good info. Thanks to all... Just to answer a few questions, the band is a four piece blues, swing, roots thing. Drums, bass, guitar/vocals, and harp/vocals. We're never particularly loud, but on the big stage I think the guitar player inches up a bit. The guitar player and harp player always mic their rigs, even in small clubs.

What I'm getting here is that the sound guy has a LOT to do with the end result. My experience, like others, is that sound guys run the gamut from great to terrible. Guess I'll just have to talk with the guy and hope for the best. These festivals have 4-5 different bands back to back with little setup time in between, and I will probably be the only upright player on stage. This means the sound guy will have to make some adjustments. From what I'm hearing it sounds like the way to go is to have them take a post eq direct out from my amp to the board, have no bass in the monitors around me, and use my current rig for stage volume. This sounds logical and should work. My only concern would be that my LittleMark II and Wizzy 12 will not be able to produce enough sound in an open air environment.

Lorenzo

[bolo]

Originally Posted by Lorenzo

Wow, it's great to be able to tap into you knowledgeable folks out there. That's a lot of good info. Thanks to all... Just to answer a few questions, the band is a four piece blues, swing, roots thing. Drums, bass, guitar/vocals, and harp/vocals. We're never particularly loud, but on the big stage I think the guitar player inches up a bit. The guitar player and harp player always mic their rigs, even in small clubs.

What I'm getting here is that the sound guy has a LOT to do with the end result. My experience, like others, is that sound guys run the gamut from great to terrible. Guess I'll just have to talk with the guy and hope for the best. These festivals have 4-5 different bands back to back with little setup time in between, and I will probably be the only upright player on stage. This means the sound guy will have to make some adjustments. From what I'm hearing it sounds like the way to go is to have them take a post eq direct out from my amp to the board, have no bass in the monitors around me, and use my current rig for stage volume. This sounds logical and should work. My only concern would be that my LittleMark II and Wizzy 12 will not be able to produce enough sound in an open air environment.

I think you're on the money. Congrats.

Looking at your very last point, your rig only needs to be loud enough so you and your bandmates can hear it. That's all. I do the same thing as LowNote where he said "turn it [ your speaker ] diagonally so that the drummer can hear it clearly and the bass sound washes over the stage." I often point my speaker so it angles across and thru the whole band on stage, not into the room. The PA will get your sound out into the room / audience space.

[Mike Arnopol]

I have a lot of experience playing big festivals and large rooms with double bass.I actually disagree with a lot that's been said here. On our rider I ask for a 4x10 cab. If I have to play softer, fine. (there is a volume control!) I always bring my Doubler and Fishman Dual Parametric box. A big problem with large fests and venues is that if your stage volume is the same as a small club you will hear yourself more through the mains than the stage. Personally, I can't play in that scenario. The sound you hear is delayed, boomy, and if indoors you can have room bounceback, too. I don't like to count on monitors for my stage volume, either. They might sound ok, but the direct sound from your amp and speaker in the specific location that you're used to is best. i'm good enough with eq now that I can get my sound at a loud volume. To me, it's like the studio. I used to suck in the studio because the sound was way different than live. I'd back off on my attack because it was too immediate in the cans. I had to work for years to get used to sound and time production being perceived in a different way. (that and a pair of Beyer 990 Pro cans) Same for me with big venues. At a big fest it's a different animal. All I really care about is hooking up with the drummer. (not really, but it is the #1 priority) I run the volume to the point where the mains don't drive me nuts and that I can hear the drummer well. Sometimes it means having a bit of drum overhead mic in my monitor. I NEVER have my bass in my monitor. Having my sound come from 2 different speakers that are likely 6 feet from eachother really screws up my sound. And I always send a mic to the FOH.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol

I have a lot of experience playing big festivals and large rooms with double bass.I actually disagree with a lot that's been said here. On our rider I ask for a 4x10 cab. If I have to play softer, fine. (there is a volume control!) I always bring my Doubler and Fishman Dual Parametric box. A big problem with large fests and venues is that if your stage volume is the same as a small club you will hear yourself more through the mains than the stage.

Mike,
Actually, I'm pretty much on the same page with you, and would certainly defer to you're depth of experience. Fortunately, I don't tour so I can always take my own cabinet a EA VL 208 and for DB it works fine, on most of the stages I'll ever play. I almost went to in ear monitors, so I could block out the sound from the mains but the Walter Woods Ultra through the VL-208 usually does the trick. Not always though, so I've had to run through SWR 4X10's and live with that nasty sound.

Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol

Personally, I can't play in that scenario. The sound you hear is delayed, boomy, and if indoors you can have room bounceback, too. I don't like to count on monitors for my stage volume, either. They might sound ok, but the direct sound from your amp and speaker in the specific location that you're used to is best. i'm good enough with eq now that I can get my sound at a loud volume.

Monitors, even with a separate mix still don't sound all that
"natural" to me and since they face toward you they actually "agitate" the instrument and set up all kinds of frequency problems when you put the bass into them. They just don't do bass all that well. They are nice to hear the other instruments with though. However, a little of that goes a long way as well.

Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol

Same for me with big venues. At a big fest it's a different animal. All I really care about is hooking up with the drummer. (not really, but it is the #1 priority) I run the volume to the point where the mains don't drive me nuts and that I can hear the drummer well. Sometimes it means having a bit of drum overhead mic in my monitor. I NEVER have my bass in my monitor. Having my sound come from 2 different speakers that are likely 6 feet from eachother really screws up my sound. And I always send a mic to the FOH.

Agreed, the mains also have a delay and sometimes are out of phase with the actual sound of the instrument coming through the monitors, especially if the engineer doesn't have the technical expertise to realize this or can't control it. I can see where you're coming with the 4X10 I've just never needed to use anything that big for DB. I just send the DPA 4099 or a AMT to the house.

Lorenzo,
Since you only have a Wizzy 12 you could possibly just use the onstage 4X10 to good effect, provided they will let you plug the Little Mark II into it. But I'd slap that Wizzy 12 into the car just incase they wont. I'd also try and get to the stage well ahead of their portion of the show and have a chat with the sound man. That's always worked better for me.

Ric

[Ed Fuqua]

Mike certainly has more experience than I do in large venues. That being said, the approach I outline has served me in good stead in the larger and outdoor venues I have played.