Equipment help for a recording noob.

[hawaiianbass]

I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to recording and the search function and the stickies aren't helping me much.

I want to record analog unless somebody can convince me digital is better. Other then my bass what do I need to record a guitar, a drum kit, and three vocal mics in an ensemble setting?

Sorry if this has been asked many times but I can't find the answers I'm looking for.

Thanks
CK

[emagdnim]

Originally Posted by hawaiianbass

I want to record analog unless somebody can convince me digital is better

I wont tell you digital is better.
It´s easier...
I've seen people record analag, and its a lot more work.

[hawaiianbass]

Well, I like the sound of analog recordings better.

Equipment? Still need that answered.

CK

[T-Bird]

Hi, CK

The most "important" question, how much money are You planning to spend?

Regards
Sam

[hyperlitem]

Heres why digital is better. Equipment cost for a full analog setup.

1. Otari 24 track tape machine: $50,000
2. 2" tape: $200 a reel
3. Mixing board or preamps: $5,000-500,000
4. Microphones that arent going to make your music sound terrible, suitable for recoring a whole band: at least: $15,000
5. Monitors: anywhere from $1000-50,000
6. Misc cabeling: between $1000-2000

I guess you could use the pres on the tape machine so eliminate the mixing board cost but you probably wouldnt want to. You could also just mix to 2 track but the screw editing later. The medium is the most expensive part. otari is still making machines, i know i used to work for a music store, but they are 50 grand which is close to what youd pay for a used one. If you havent worked in a studio or arent going to school for it good luck learning to edit and calibrate a tape machine. For a few grand you could put together a similiar sounding digital pro tools setup and just get a tape emulator such as the new digidesign suite or a rupert neve portico tape emulator without having to deal with the hassle of tape. Im leaving alot of costs out but if you have 50 g's to drop on a tape machine the rest of the costs are not big.

[fenderbassabuse]

Originally Posted by hawaiianbass

Well, I like the sound of analog recordings better.

Equipment? Still need that answered.

CK

Apologies if I sound disrespectful, (I don' mean to be) but, it sounds like someone has been reading too many articles about why analog is better than digital, and doesn't have much experience working with a digital setup in depth.

[hawaiianbass]

Originally Posted by fenderbassabuse

Apologies if I sound disrespectful, (I don' mean to be) but, it sounds like someone has been reading too many articles about why analog is better than digital, and doesn't have much experience working with a digital setup in depth.

No need to apologize. I never said analog was better then digital; I said I like the sound of analog recordings better then digital ones. No I don't have much experiance with digital since I haven't done any recording at all.

Since hyperlitem pointed out the costs and a couple options what do I need to do a digital setup? Remember I'm a complete noob.

I will probably try and find many things I need used.

Thanks all.
CK

[T-Bird]

Hi, CK

IMHO You don't have to have the dream setup like hyperlitem suggested to get the analog sound that's so desirable and sought after these days. But even a decent analog setup still costs roughly 3 times the cost of a digital studio. And if You start off the right way, upgrading the digital system is possible, even plausible.

I'd start off with a digital multitracker with a CD burner, a few good mics, a few good DSPs and a lot of time to learn the system.

I Have a Fostex VF16 DMT with 8 (16 with an ADAT extension) tracs simultaneous recording, but only 2 pre amps so another desk is required. A nice selection of older industry standard mics, D12, MD421, CR57, SM58 etc. + some more recent cheaper ones. A couple of older solid FX units and a few recent cheapos.

Any array of equipment doesn't mean a squat if You don't know what it's capable of, or can't use it to its full potential and that takes a lot of time.

IMHO all the analog home recording hype is just bull, none of the material recorded with non pro systems won't be released professionally "as is" anyway, it's going to have a once- (or twice) over in the mastering stage before it's accepted to be burned. And unless You're going to buy a tape line and sell Your creations as C- cassettes, the final product is digital anyway.

The price relations estimate for the before mentioned 16 track "studio" could be:

The DMT (+ADAT ext. if required) X
Microphones to do the job_______X*2,5
Additional recording desk________X
DSP + compressors_____________X*1,5
Monitoring system______________X*2
Cables_______________________X

At least that's quite near what my set up is, anyway.

Regards
Sam

[hawaiianbass]

What does DSP stand for?

When you say another desk is required where you talking about a mixer?

Does each mic need a pre amp of its own?

CK

[T-Bird]

Hi, CK.

Digital Signal Processor. Echo, reverb, delay etc. and enhancers, aural exciters etc.

Yes, those babies have multiple names depending of where You live.

Yes they do.

Sam

[hawaiianbass]

So could I just get a mixer that has enough channels for all my mics and then go into the recorder?

Would I need to put each mic on a seperate track or could I put one instrument per track?

What would be a decent recorder that isn't to expensive?

Sorry for all these questions.

CK

[satchmo]

Getting a decent sound analog in the home studio is going to cost you a fortune. Believe me, I've tried. It can be done, but as has been mentioned, it's mighty pricey.

Digital, your best bet is in the box mixing -- meaning in the computer. Then all you need is a decent computer with lots of ram (I run a P4 1.2 ghz with 2 gb of ram), an interface (there's a bunch out there like the Presonus Firepod or Firestudio, MOTU stuff, etc.), and software (most interfaces come with some kind of software).

To record drums, guitar and vox, all at once (ensemble setting), you're going to need 4 mics on the drums minimum (kick, snare, and two overheads), at least one mic per guitar amp, and then one mic per singer. So if you have one guitar amp, with a three vocal set up, you're looking at 8 inputs required which the Firestudio can handle meaning you don't need a mixer.

If you mix in the box, then you can use software plugins which means you don't need external DSPs for effects.

This is still going to cost you a bit in equipment and cabling. Plus you have to learn the software.

What's your budget, and what type of music are you recording?

Oh yeah, and the room you have to record in will make a huge difference to the overall sound, analog or digital.

Check out www.recordingproject.com for some good forums on recording as well as www.homerecording.com/bbs

Also check out this site http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html for a whole pile of info on recording techniques, equipment and mic placements (uberimportant)

[T-Bird]

Hi, Ck

The mixer should have an insert point and a direct out on each channel for signal processing and to route the signal to the recorder, preferably pre/post eq selectable. And / or as many groups and aux sends as possible to have alternative ways to route the signal.

In order to be able to mix and process each track separately afterwards You have to record every mic/instrument into a separate track.

Personally, I think my old Fostex is a decent recorder and they're quite cheap used, BUT it lacks the drum machine found on other more recent DMTs so in order to create music all by yourself, You have to have a separate drum machine. As for the internal effects , well nothing to write home about. You pretty much get what You pay for.
As we are located in a totally different market areas, lets wait to someone in Your area to give an opinion about the stuff that's available there.

Don't worry 'bout the questions, that's the only way to get different opinions. Filtering the good from the bad, that can be tricky.

Sam

[bassturtle]

Originally Posted by hyperlitem

Heres why digital is better. Equipment cost for a full analog setup.

1. Otari 24 track tape machine: $50,000
2. 2" tape: $200 a reel
3. Mixing board or preamps: $5,000-500,000
4. Microphones that arent going to make your music sound terrible, suitable for recoring a whole band: at least: $15,000
5. Monitors: anywhere from $1000-50,000
6. Misc cabeling: between $1000-2000

LOL where did you pull these prices from? It's not difficult to find really decent used Otari's for no where CLOSE to $50k and how is it that decent mics are going to cost you $15k? Did you spend that on your mics? Please. It's not like the mics/pres/monitors are going to be THAT different than with a digital setup.

[hawaiianbass]

Originally Posted by satchmo

Getting a decent sound analog in the home studio is going to cost you a fortune. Believe me, I've tried. It can be done, but as has been mentioned, it's mighty pricey.

Digital, your best bet is in the box mixing -- meaning in the computer. Then all you need is a decent computer with lots of ram (I run a P4 1.2 ghz with 2 gb of ram), an interface (there's a bunch out there like the Presonus Firepod or Firestudio, MOTU stuff, etc.), and software (most interfaces come with some kind of software).

To record drums, guitar and vox, all at once (ensemble setting), you're going to need 4 mics on the drums minimum (kick, snare, and two overheads), at least one mic per guitar amp, and then one mic per singer. So if you have one guitar amp, with a three vocal set up, you're looking at 8 inputs required which the Firestudio can handle meaning you don't need a mixer.

If you mix in the box, then you can use software plugins which means you don't need external DSPs for effects.

This is still going to cost you a bit in equipment and cabling. Plus you have to learn the software.

What's your budget, and what type of music are you recording?

Oh yeah, and the room you have to record in will make a huge difference to the overall sound, analog or digital.

Check out www.recordingproject.com for some good forums on recording as well as www.homerecording.com/bbs

Also check out this site http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html for a whole pile of info on recording techniques, equipment and mic placements (uberimportant)

Getting a better computer would be a problem for me since I would have to get either a new computer or all the stuff for recording so I kinda like T-birds suggestions better.

I really don't know what my budget is but I want to spend as little money as possible on decent equipment.

We play some Primus covers and then pretty much all of our original stuff is lead bass oriented.

CK

[WalterBush]

Originally Posted by hawaiianbass

Getting a better computer would be a problem for me since I would have to get either a new computer or all the stuff for recording so I kinda like T-birds suggestions better.

I really don't know what my budget is but I want to spend as little money as possible on decent equipment.

We play some Primus covers and then pretty much all of our original stuff is lead bass oriented.

CK

You may be better off saving up some dough and paying an existing studio to record your band.

Call around, plenty of studios still record to tape. It won't be cheap, but it'll be a damn sight cheaper than setting up your own recording studio from scratch, especially if you're looking to go all analog.

[hawaiianbass]

Originally Posted by WalterBush

You may be better off saving up some dough and paying an existing studio to record your band.

Call around, plenty of studios still record to tape. It won't be cheap, but it'll be a damn sight cheaper than setting up your own recording studio from scratch, especially if you're looking to go all analog.

What would a ballpark price be?

CK

[WalterBush]

Originally Posted by hawaiianbass

What would a ballpark price be?

CK

Depending on whether you go live or track instruments separately, how prepared your band is in the studio (more practice=less takes), and how much you budget for mixing and mastering (often overlooked, but just as important as tracking), you could go in and slam out a punk album for a few hundred (or less!), a good rock album for under a thousand, or borrow 4 million and record albums just like Korn or Metallica.

Seriously, call a studio, get an hourly rate, tell them what you want, and they can give you a ballpark figure. It varies.

I will tell you, it's much cheaper to get good quality if you schedule time when it's traditionally slow, i.e. the holidays, the middle of the night, etc. Plenty of recording studios with gold albums under their belts will drop their prices (I've seen time at Fantasy studios in Berkely as low as $99/hour, and they're famous) when work is slow. Call around, and find out.

[hawaiianbass]

I'm just putting this out there so feel free to make changes and suggestions.

Mics- 3 vocal, 5-7 drum mics (drumkit is pretty big), but would it be best to mic the bass and guitar amps or just use DI's?
A 16 channel mixer
A recorder similer to what T-bird was talking about
Some kind of monitering system
Cables for all this
I'm sure a compressor would be a good idea but what other DSP's?

Feel free to add anything or change anything.

CK

[satchmo]

Originally Posted by hawaiianbass

I'm just putting this out there so feel free to make changes and suggestions.

Mics- 3 vocal, 5-7 drum mics (drumkit is pretty big), but would it be best to mic the bass and guitar amps or just use DI's?
A 16 channel mixer
A recorder similer to what T-bird was talking about
Some kind of monitering system
Cables for all this
I'm sure a compressor would be a good idea but what other DSP's?

Feel free to add anything or change anything.

CK

Now others will be far more knowledgeable about stand-alone digital recorders, but if you mixdown tracks before going to a recorder, it's going to be a bitch to add reverb, compression, etc. to individual inputs.

You can go DI off the bass, but please mic the guitar amp, most guitar amp DI's suck, and the tone is really made by the combination of amp and speaker.

Given that you're trying to do something on the cheap, I would seriously recommend going to a studio, as starting from scratch I can tell you that your first product will not sound anywhere near professional.