Laptops with dual HD's - SSD + 7200rpm HD for DAW

[pfschim]

I have been looking to upgrade my current laptop recording/practice/writing system with a systems with the most solid specs I can find.

In the process I have opened my consideration up to possibly include Apple products for the first time (MB Pro or even an upper end equipped MB Air).

I also have discovered that there are manufacturers who are producing upper end laptops with very serious specs including:

i7 CPU's (720, 740, 820 and 840)
8 or even 12gb of DDR3 1066/1333 ram

and the most interesting discovery is that you can get dual HD equipped laptops, like the HP Envy, with a 160gb SSD AND an 750gb 7200rpm SATA HD. All in a system that weighs around 7lbs (for the 17" screen models). If you go with the 14" (14.5" screen) you can get it down to the 5.5lb range!

seems like these would make very nice mobile DAW platforms that would be pretty future-proof (i.e. good for at least 5-6 years). The only thing they seem to lack is a Firewire port, or a cardbus 34/54 slot for expansion. These systems usually only have USB 2.0 and perhaps 1 USB 3.0 ports.

Anyone here using a laptop system equipped with dual HD's (SSd + std SATA HD) ?

[m_bisson]

Battery life and heat would be an issue, even with one of them being SSD. I have a 7200rpm in mine right now and it gets hot... I've no experience with SSDs though. Maybe get 2 of those instead? I would personally never store 1tb of data on a portable pc that can get lost/stolen/dropped etc..

[pfschim]

Originally Posted by m_bisson

Battery life and heat would be an issue, even with one of them being SSD. I have a 7200rpm in mine right now and it gets hot... I've no experience with SSDs though. Maybe get 2 of those instead? I would personally never store 1tb of data on a portable pc that can get lost/stolen/dropped etc..

Interesting. I do not have any experience with mobile 7200rpm drives, only the older 5400rpm drives, so I don't have anything to compare them to. The 5400 drives that I have used don't seem to get very hot.

Battery life is not a top priority for me, as I almost always use my laptops plugged in. I also usually keep a second battery in my case too for those times when it really matters to have more than the usual 2-3 hours you get from laptop batteries these days (like on looong international flights).

The TDP (heat) specs for Intel Mobile Core 2 Duo (T series) are all in the 35w range, with the Mobile i7 CPU's spec'ing out at 45w. That's 25% more dissipated heat for the i7's, but I would not expect that to feel "hot" compared to C2D's.

I would generally agree that 1TB is quite a lot of storage for a mobile machine, but the ones I have seen are either 64gb SSD + 500gb SATA HD, or the biggest one I saw was the HP Envy with 160gb SSD + 750gb 7200 SATA HD. I kind of feel that the 500gb would be just fine, as you would probably tend to dump off finished work onto another storage source like a 1TB back-up disk that was not carted around all the time.

Really, its just interesting to me that such powerful machines are generally available, as long as you are willing to kick down the $$. It brings out my inner geek.

So, anyone else have any experience with a mobile DAW platform that has both an SSD and a 7200 SATA HD ?

[m_bisson]

Well, my current laptop is a Dell Studio with an i3 and 4gb of ram and it's got no issues running anything. I use fruityloops 9 for recording and it's the same speed as my desktop. The i7 may be overkill, mainly because it has more SLOWER cores. For things like recording audio, where the software only uses one core at a time, you're better off having a dual core with each core clocked at a higher speed than a quad or 8 core machine with slower clocks. Multi-tasking is definitely better with more cores, because different programs can be allocated to different cores. But that's really where the benefits end. The software just hasn't caught up to the technology yet, and by the time it does there will be things much better than the i7 out to handle that sort of stuff.

Future-proofing a laptop is a lot more expensive than doing the same to a desktop, like 3 times as much.

[uhdinator]

I use a MacBook Pro 2.4 GHZ duo 4GB ram laptop,
and run an external 7200 rpm firewire 800 HD to record on (so internal drive can run the program more efficiently)

I have streamed 16 tracks at once off a Mackie 1640I mixer at 24 bit 48k
using a buffer of 128 or 256 (tracking all at once latency not an issue)
and had no problems. I use Logic DAW. Latest version of Logic can be used in 32 or 64 bit mode. In the 64 bit mode you can assign how many cores Logic can use and Logic can access more than 4 GB or ram. 32 bit mode 4 GB is all it can use.

Something to be said for a software that is optimized to run with the multiple core systems (apple only).

Then I get the gear home and plug the HD into an Imac and mix.
Tracking is not the hard part, its when you have multiple effects plug ins running on 16 tracks. Thats what drags your system down. Mac Book worked fine so far. Did mixing on it too until adding an Imac for that. Now just use laptop to track live stuff. Using lots of virtual inst (samples) is what takes power as well.

Get a laptop with FW800 and a drive with FW800 and FW400. IF you only have one FW port like Macbooks, you can connect the ext HD with fw800 and you interface to the FW400 port on the drive.
Or a Esata and firewire port and you will be all set.

[ljazz]

I have a i5 cyberpower laptop that has a 350 gig 7200rpm hd. I use a TI chipset PCIe fw card for my interfaces, and a 2 tb Fantom Drives eSATA 7200rpm external HD. I picked up the drive on sale around Christmas last year for 93 bucks. The system smokes for recording. No issues yet with large mixes and lots of effects running....... not even a hiccup when automating.

[gricko]

look - TDP means nothing if you are comparing desktop and laptop. in desktop you can use multiple 12, 15cm fans to cool the system. in laptops you get one very noisy fan. also - 7200rpm high capacity drive shakes like little richard. and count on boiling an egg w/ heat it dissipates.

as uhdinator mentioned - get yourself an laptop w/ firewire ports and go external. FW is serial standar meaning you can attach [almost] as many devices as you want.

on the same note - guess you plan on using some external audio device. pick one that has some DSPs onboard. in my case, my CPU load is around 15%, while processing audio.

[pfschim]

Originally Posted by gricko

look - TDP means nothing if you are comparing desktop and laptop. in desktop you can use multiple 12, 15cm fans to cool the system. in laptops you get one very noisy fan. also - 7200rpm high capacity drive shakes like little richard. and count on boiling an egg w/ heat it dissipates.

as uhdinator mentioned - get yourself an laptop w/ firewire ports and go external. FW is serial standard meaning you can attach [almost] as many devices as you want.

on the same note - guess you plan on using some external audio device. pick one that has some DSPs onboard. in my case, my CPU load is around 15%, while processing audio.

ok, I am not comparing laptops to desktops where heat is concerned. I am aware that for laptops, heat is a potential issue .. particularly with a CPU like an i7. I have been thinking that perhaps an i5 would be good enough - Dual Core, but 4 threads, and a bit lower max TDP (35w vs 45w). I also feel like using an SSD would make it not only faster than a std HD, but also cooler and quieter (and no shaking - because no moving parts).

I am using an interface. Currently its either a NI 1in/1out USB 2.0 for simple single track stuff (has no DSP feature), or for multi-track work I use the M Audio Fast Track Ultra USB 2.0 interface (it does have some reverb DSP). While I recognize that FW may be a slightly better interface, it's getting harder and harder to find it on a laptop that is not an Apple product.

For single or multitrack stuff I typically do not use a whole lot of VST/plugin FX, preferring instead to get clean tracks and then do whatever FX I might want in the final mix and mastering.

Right now, using an Intel T5800 C2D equipped laptop and the M Audio multi track interface, I run around 45% CPU load doing 6 simultaneous tracks into Ableton as my "DAW" (hey it works for me).

So, in the new laptop, I am looking for portability (so 16" and under), speedy and efficient CPU, 64bit OS function (this is easy), USB ports, FW (if I can get it), eSATA for 2nd HD, and and speedy primary HD (160GB or 240gb SSD looks like a winner here - as long as I can get a lappie with SATA 2.0 support).

After some searching around, I am looking hard at HP dv6t, Toshiba Qosimo X505-xxx, and possibly ASUS G61 series.

The Apple products (MacBook Pro, MacBook Air) did seduce me up front, but I am much more of a Wintel user (just more comfortable and familiar with the interface and work flow), and then there is the Apple pricing .. which as I looked hard at other machines, really started to turn me off.

[gricko]

FW is not 'slightly' better interface. it is MUCH better interface. for one - it has larger data bus. more importantly - it has it's own controller, resulting in no CPU usage while moving data [USB can knock your CPU in 100% in no time] and being able to read and write data at the same time. the thing USB can not. none of which is important for external audio unit, but very important for storage units.
intel does not support FW much, but l/tops based on AMD CPUs or intel w/ nVidia chipset usually have FW.

you can use SSD for boot drive, not for storage, taken into account price/size equation.
also - bear in mind - while working in DAW both CPU and HDD will be in constant use. no spikes, but burst.

i wish you the best of luck w/ internal 7200rpm hdd, but my experience taught me differently.
used to have a l/top w/ vibrating'n'heating hdd under my left arm rest. high level of discomfort after 1/2 an hour of use and pain lasting for days.

[ljazz]

Originally Posted by gricko

i wish you the best of luck w/ internal 7200rpm hdd, but my experience taught me differently.
used to have a l/top w/ vibrating'n'heating hdd under my left arm rest. high level of discomfort after 1/2 an hour of use and pain lasting for days.

Mine doesn't get any warmer than my previous machine with a 5600rmp.... and there is certainly no more vibration.... virtually nil. Keep the airways clear, and heat shouldn't be a problem. My son's laptop has a 7200 rpm internal hd, and it's going on 4 years now without a problem.

[seamonkey]

It's almost like we're talking about the fallacies of watts, or speaker size.

Look at the transfer rates.
A bigger platter traveling at 7200 RPM is going to have more speed on it's outside rim and faster data rates. But then a slower platter speed with higher densities could be fine.

See: http://www.hdtune.com/

I wish high performance SSD would come down in price faster. No mechanical parts = less failures.

[pfschim]

Originally Posted by gricko

FW is not 'slightly' better interface. it is MUCH better interface. for one - it has larger data bus. more importantly - it has it's own controller, resulting in no CPU usage while moving data [USB can knock your CPU in 100% in no time] and being able to read and write data at the same time. the thing USB can not. none of which is important for external audio unit, but very important for storage units.
intel does not support FW much, but l/tops based on AMD CPUs or intel w/ nVidia chipset usually have FW.

you can use SSD for boot drive, not for storage, taken into account price/size equation.
also - bear in mind - while working in DAW both CPU and HDD will be in constant use. no spikes, but burst.

i wish you the best of luck w/ internal 7200rpm hdd, but my experience taught me differently.
used to have a l/top w/ vibrating'n'heating hdd under my left arm rest. high level of discomfort after 1/2 an hour of use and pain lasting for days.

well, I finally decided on a laptop (HP dv6t SE) with the following specs:

i7-720QM
6GB RAM (DDR3 1333)
640gb HD (2x320) SATA 2.0 7200RPM
4 USB 2.0 ports (one shared with eSATA), HDMI and Audio in/out
16" Brightview screen
ATI Mobility 5650 w/1 gb dedicated video ram

What I plan to do is pull one of the std HD's and replace it with a 120gb 2nd generation SSD, and use it as my boot drive and load my DAW and some key music apps on it as well. Then I can use the remaining 320gb 7200 HD as the storage drive. I will probably take the other 320gb HD, and put it in a small eSATA enclosure to use as portable storage.

As I am currently using 2 different interfaces through USB 2.0, I feel like this is not a big issue for my needs. They both seem to hold up under the demands that I put on them.

I imagine that eSATA is as good or better than FireWire (even FW800) for portable storage needs. I know that eSATA (2.0 spec) has greater throughput than FW800, and also exceeds FW800 on both random and sequential reads and writes.

The key thing I could not easily find in a configuration I wanted to buy, was an express card slot. This would have allowed me to add Firewire 400/800 if I really felt I wanted it.

But, given my overall goals, I feel like this new laptop will be a good upgrade from my current (and capable) Toshiba. I will soon see!

Thanks for all the feedback.

[pfschim]

Originally Posted by seamonkey

It's almost like we're talking about the fallacies of watts, or speaker size.

Look at the transfer rates.
A bigger platter traveling at 7200 RPM is going to have more speed on it's outside rim and faster data rates. But then a slower platter speed with higher densities could be fine.

See: http://www.hdtune.com/

I wish high performance SSD would come down in price faster. No mechanical parts = less failures.

Seamonkey - what are you getting at with your comment about fallacies as it relates to HD rotational speed ? You kind of lost me there.

FWIW, I am seeing 120-160gb 2.5" SSD's in the $200 range, and 240/256 SSD's around $450. That is way more expensive than traditional HD's, but not totally out of reach IMO.

In general, while I am happy with current system performance specs, as a loooong time computing geek, I am no longer surprised - if you know what I mean. price/performance or price/meg (shoot, per gig!) of storage is just outstanding these days!

[seamonkey]

Yes in general, a higher rpm drive will have higher performance, but you need to look across the whole drive. And higher density can make up for slower rotational speeds. Lower speeds means more battery life, and less heat - which may mean longer life.

Just dig around the web for some hdtune measurements on your drives. Even if you don't use all the space it's better to get high GB drives.

For example here's a 1tb 5400rpm Samsung HM100UI


Here's a 500gb 7200rpm Samsung HM500JJ


The first 500gb of the slower 5400 RPM drive looks very good.

If you partition the drive you can get a lot of tracks on the outside of the 1tb drive. Save the inside partition for editing backups.

The space goes fast when you start using it. And if you ever do video - it goes really fast.

[ljazz]

Excellent info Seamonkey!!!

[gricko]

right. eSATA could solve a lot of vibro/heating problems. and it should be cheaper than FW. there are some very serious arrays on the marker, for almost no money.

[RMacBass]

Since July, I've had a 15" MacBook Pro i7, 8GB, 512MB graphics, with both a 128GB SSD and a 750GB 7200rpm internal HDD (using the OWC Drive Doubler). I couldn't be happier, unless maybe it suddenly transformed into a Ferrari, or grew an ExpressCard/34 port.

It gets a little warm, but has never given me cause for alarm. I elevate it to eye level when it's on my desk, that probably helps it cool off, but even when I use it on my lap or sitting on the comforter in bed, it's not bad.

It rips through Need For Speed: Most Wanted.