Latency with Windows 7 - playing live plugged into mic

[Erick Lam]

Hello folks,

I just bought a HP laptop (Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bits, 4Gb memory) and when I plug my bass in the microphone jack, I'm having latency problem when playing live, meaning I can't play along tracks.

I searched the web and it seems to be a common problem. Some say Windows 7 digitizes the signal even for live playing while older OS don't. I never had that problem on my XP desktop machines, including an 8 year old piece of crap (which is actually the best I've had for playing).

HP's solution is, of course, to re-install drivers (which I did), format everything or to send it for repair. I don't think they even understand what latency is. If I sent it, I doubt they'd hear the problem at all since it's very slight. It's not that bad playing alone but a real pain in the rear with tracks.

The soundcard doesn't have an option to adjust buffer size.

I'll try a friend's external card tonight but I'd rather do without one.

Any idea?

Thanks

[Stealth]

No, the problem is quite far from what HP suggests, it's not directly Windows 7's fault, the AudioDG engine inside isn't the source of the problems (not as much anyway), nor it is quite HP's or Realtek's fault (in case they did the sound-card on the laptop, as they usually do). And pretty much no cheaper sound-card has true, non-digitizing bypass (i.e. pretty much every card performs ADC/DAC while inputting from a microphone).

The trouble is Windows have a pretty odd architecture that forces you to go through several API layers before getting through to the soundcard and back, which causes a lot of lag, upwards to an including 250 ms... I've even seen a HP that had a half-second delay, making it unusable.

The solution might be in the ASIO4ALL driver, which enables any sound-card to have minimum latency. Until I got my outboard sound-card, ASIO4ALL was my weapon of choice.

[kevinmoore73]

Microsoft made a lot of changes with regards to audio hardware in the transition from XP to Vista. Windows 7 continued the Vista way of doing things. My advice would be to pick up a FireWire (ideally) interface for recording, even though a USB interface may meet your needs.

It's still really an issue of drivers, but a lot of companies still haven't hashed things out to a point where low-latency recording is possible using built-in audio inputs.

[Stealth]

I absolutely agree - for anything even semiprofessional a USB two/four-channel soundcard or would be enough (like Terratecs, cheaper Mayas and Tascams), for anything more serious, FireWire is the only way to go. For basic stuff, however, this would be enough (though I don't use A4A anymore for anything except tuning up without the pro card).

[Erick Lam]

Thanks everyone.

Firewire is not an option and I don't really want to add an external card. I'm nowhere near semi-pro. I just need to play through my computer.

I've downloaded the asio driver but it wouldn't show up in the tray so I followed instructions on Asio's forum to use the winamp plugin. It shows in the tray but only when winamp is running and settings don't seem to help my latency problem, nor do they stick when I restart the computer.

I'm already low on hair count and this is not helping!

[WalterBush]

Your best bet is a cheapie USB interface. Built-in soundcards aren't known for low-latency performance.

[Erick Lam]

So, I got a friend's M-audio Fast Track and it was plug-n-play, no latency.

Turns out the USB card will be a better option. Outside of home, the USB card alone will be smaller and have less cables than my old set-up using a VF-1 in the computer. I won't need the effects then.

Thanks!

[Mcgiver69]

Dude I have a Rockfrog usb interface and I can play and record without any noticeable latency. If you want you can buy the behringer usb interface it is cheap and works just fine, I tried one last week and didn't find any difference compared with my rockfrog.

[olivieri]

Originally Posted by Mcgiver69

Dude I have a Rockfrog usb interface and I can play and record without any noticeable latency. If you want you can buy the behringer usb interface it is cheap and works just fine, I tried one last week and didn't find any difference compared with my rockfrog.

hey man do you have WINDOWS 7 or..? i got ROCK FROG yesterday and it wont work properly on my laptop with windows 7..i tried it on friends laptop that has WINDOWS XP and it installed and worked perfectly.

i tried to download W7 rock frog driver but nothing changed, it just wont install properly

[Prester Dilly]

As an engineer, as well as someone who has been selling musical recording tools for over ten years, I'm afraid you are not going to have much of a choice other than using an external sound device.

It doesn't have to be firewire. A USB device, such as the M-Audio Fast Track should work fine.

Any time you are relying on the internal soundcard to process the audio going in, you will have latency. This has been an issue for years. You will need an external unit that supports an ASIO driver.

Also, if you have Windows Explorer on the machine, get it off of there. Switch to Firefox. There is something about Explorer that interferes with many types of music software.

Hope this helps.

[Bassman316]

Originally Posted by Erick Lam

So, I got a friend's M-audio Fast Track and it was plug-n-play, no latency.

Turns out the USB card will be a better option. Outside of home, the USB card alone will be smaller and have less cables than my old set-up using a VF-1 in the computer. I won't need the effects then.

Thanks!

+1 on the USB Fast Track. Simple plug and play, literally. I don't do any recording, but I like to practice to MP3s or even cue up the occasional vid on YouTube to play along to.

[tk421]

Originally Posted by Prester Dilly

As an engineer, as well as someone who has been selling musical recording tools for over ten years, I'm afraid you are not going to have much of a choice other than using an external sound device.

It doesn't have to be firewire. A USB device, such as the M-Audio Fast Track should work fine.

Any time you are relying on the internal soundcard to process the audio going in, you will have latency. This has been an issue for years. You will need an external unit that supports an ASIO driver.

Also, if you have Windows Explorer on the machine, get it off of there. Switch to Firefox. There is something about Explorer that interferes with many types of music software.

Hope this helps.

surely you mean Internet Explorer?

do not, repeat : DO NOT try to remove Windows Explorer, unless you really enjoy a command line interface.
and good luck removing IE without breaking 50 billion other things.
and by "internal sound card" i believe you mean "onboard sound card" - there is a world of difference. many internals already support ASIO.

fwiw - i use a super cheapie 1/4" to usb cable and the asio4all drivers. i average 12 to 30 ms latency with no clipping in Guitar Rig. i run my passive Peavey in thru the line in jack of my Audigy 2 with 5ms latency. my active Ibanez is just too hot for that though - i input on the usb, output thru the audigy2.

i know it's not ideal. but it works. i'm not recording, just playing around.

i am a Desktop Engineer, and a long time hardware junkie. i fix pc's for fun. yeap, it's kinda like being a masochist, but it hurts more.

[seamonkey]

Originally Posted by Stealth

The solution might be in the ASIO4ALL driver, which enables any sound-card to have minimum latency. Until I got my outboard sound-card, ASIO4ALL was my weapon of choice.

+1
And Asio4all works fine with Windows 7

[MonetBass]

I'm running a Presonus Audiobox USB into Cubase LE4 (came with the box) on Windows 7 64-bit Home Premium and have zero latency.

For free recording software, check out Audacity.

[Jim Roseberry]

Originally Posted by MonetBass

I'm running a Presonus Audiobox USB into Cubase LE4 (came with the box) on Windows 7 64-bit Home Premium and have zero latency.

FWIW, True zero latency is not possible...
Not even with DSP based DAWs like ProTools HD.

When you're talking about playing/monitoring in realtime thru software EFX (like Ampeg SVX), then you're dealing with round-trip latency.
The best PCI/e units deliver 5ms total round-trip latency at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k.
The best Firewire and USB audio interfaces deliver about 5.5ms latency at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k.

Round-trip latency is the sum of the following:

• ASIO input buffer
• ASIO output buffer
• A/D and D/A converter latency
• The driver's hidden safety buffer

(Note: The safety buffer typically can't be adjusted by the user and is often large with typical USB and Firewire units causing significantly higher round-trip latency.)

If you're monitoring via the unit's onboard DSP, then you're still experiencing some amount of latency (likely in the 2-3ms range).

If you're monitoring thru software EFX, you're experiencing at least 5.5ms latency at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k.
Note that this feels similar to playing thru a POD.

The only way to reduce round-trip latency is to reduce the ASIO buffer size (or the safety buffer - if the driver permits this)... or you can increase the sample-rate.
Doubling the sample-rate (roughly) cuts round-trip latency in half.


@OP:
Windows 7 has literally nothing to do with the latency you're experiencing.
It's all down to the audio interface and its driver.
If having the lowest possible latency while playing/monitoring in realtime thru software EFX is important to your work, you need a dedicated audio interface. ASIO4ALL is OK... but it's no substitute for a good dedicated audio interface.
Note that a dedicated audio interface need not be overly expensive. The M-Audio Audiophile 192 is an excellent performer ~$180.
The M-Audio FastTrack units are good (FastTrack Ultra 8R is fantastic for the price)... and provide low round-trip latency.

[Prester Dilly]

Yes, I was referring to "Internet Explorer".
As to whether or not I am correct about the issue, I am simply forwarding what product reps have told me over the years.

[bandwife]

Originally Posted by Stealth

No, the problem is quite far from what HP suggests, it's not directly Windows 7's fault, the AudioDG engine inside isn't the source of the problems (not as much anyway), nor it is quite HP's or Realtek's fault (in case they did the sound-card on the laptop, as they usually do). And pretty much no cheaper sound-card has true, non-digitizing bypass (i.e. pretty much every card performs ADC/DAC while inputting from a microphone).

The trouble is Windows have a pretty odd architecture that forces you to go through several API layers before getting through to the soundcard and back, which causes a lot of lag, upwards to an including 250 ms... I've even seen a HP that had a half-second delay, making it unusable.

The solution might be in the ASIO4ALL driver, which enables any sound-card to have minimum latency. Until I got my outboard sound-card, ASIO4ALL was my weapon of choice.

+1

Using ASIO4ALL on a relatively new VAIO running windows 7. It's a beautiful thing.

[MonetBass]

Originally Posted by Jim Roseberry

FWIW, True zero latency is not possible...
Not even with DSP based DAWs like ProTools HD.

Literalist!!

OK, I should have said "negligible latency" (< 5ms) to the point I don't notice it.

[MIJ-VI]

Originally Posted by Erick Lam

Thanks everyone.

Firewire is not an option and I don't really want to add an external card. I'm nowhere near semi-pro. I just need to play through my computer.

I've downloaded the asio driver but it wouldn't show up in the tray so I followed instructions on Asio's forum to use the winamp plugin. It shows in the tray but only when winamp is running and settings don't seem to help my latency problem, nor do they stick when I restart the computer.

I'm already low on hair count and this is not helping!

I recently bought an inexpensive notebook (an Acer Aspire 5517-5136 which came pre-loaded with Windows 7 Home Premium etc) to use at the public library.

While this notebook is too slow for recording audio, I can play bass guitar-->Alesis NanoVerb's stereo outs via 1/4" mono-to-1/8" TRS-->5517's mic in-->headphone out with zero audible latency... when running under Ubuntu 10.04 LTS.

(However, under Windows 7 my bass guitar sounded like it was being played through the wet-only output of a DDL set at ~250-300ms delay.)

A suggested course of action:

- Read "These release notes document known issues with Ubuntu 10.04 LTS and its variants."

- Download the Ubuntu 10.04 LTS Deskop .iso and burn it at a slower speed (<24x) to a 700MB CD-R (it's a live CD which will allow you to test Ubuntu on your PC without altering the Windows hard drive).

OR install Ubuntu 10.04 LTS onto a USB drive:

'Put Windows to the Most Appropriate Use: Create a Bootable USB Stick with Ubuntu 10.04'

********

- Please back up your important files to another hard drive or network them to another computer (SOP before trying ANYTHING new under any OS).

********

- Boot your PC with the 10.04 live CD (or USB drive) and vet its audio etc performance.

- If your PC seems to work well under Ubuntu 10.04 LTS then you can boot into Ubuntu when you need to from...

- a live CD (very slow) or

- a USB memory stick (slow) or

- a USB hard drive (not as slow)

...which can be selected via your PC's BIOS' quick boot menu (on my Acer Aspire 5517-5136 this is actuated by pressing the F12 key early in the boot. On an Asus eeePC netbook it's the Esc key) whose use should be detailed in your PC's manual.

--------

As for installing Ubuntu onto your PC's hard drive and dual-booting with Windows?

Unless one is prepared to deal with Windows' updates nasty habit of periodically overwriting the MBR (*Master Boot Record), I wouldn't recommend it.

*The MBR is a location on the hard drive where Windows stores its NTBL (NT Boot Loader, which does not recognize Linux operating systems).

In contrast, Ubuntu's GRUB2 (G Rand Unified Bootloader ver. 2, introduced in Ubuntu 9.10) recognizes various Linux and Windows operating systems.

When Ubuntu is installed on the same hard drive alongside with Windows, the MBR is overwritten with the GRUB2 to allow for booting into either OS.

Since the MBR is a target for malware (and since Microsoft exhibits a my-way-or-the-highway attitude towards competitors), major Windows updates will often overwrite the MBR with a new copy of Windows' own NTBL thus wiping out Ubuntu's GRUB2.

The result of this action is either: an inability to boot into Ubuntu, or an inability to boot into either OS.