a legit mac/pc question

[shwashwa]

ok, so i know i'm really behind the curve when it comes to computer recording. i've been reading these forums alot and have learned alot, but have come up with even more questions as a result. here are 2 of them.
1. it seems from reading that the windows xp needs alot of tweaks before it can be used optimally for audio applications. i've also read that you shouldn't use your windows based audio computer for anything except audio applications. is this also true for mac? (particularly the tweaking part)

2. i've been reading where there are seemingly endless options for sound cards with windows based systems, but there are also seemingly endless compatibility issues between the software being used and the hardware installed. i have not encountered much about a mac's soundcard. is the default installed soundcard sufficent? do people swap out mac soundcards like on pc? are there as many compatability issues?

thanks!

[DocBop]

I had a nice detailed replied typed and something happened and it went into the bit-bucket so you get a short reply.

Question 1. The Mac is a closed system except for the high-end Mac Pro. In other words there is only one iMac or MacBook or Mini. Being a know quantity it is simple for manufactures to write code and know exactly what they have to deal with. The PC whether you build it yourself or even buy a name brand could have multiple sound cards, video, hard drives, motherboards, memory, and on and on. That helps bring the price of PC's down, but makes the PC an black box for developers they can't test for every possible combination. I know I used to do QA testing. So that is why PC users have to Tweak more than Mac users. Mac users still have to tweak things, just not as much.

Question 2. Like I said before the Mac is a closed system so only the Mac Pro has slots where you could put sound cards and etc in. The Mac comes with good sound and MIDI support. When you get into recording and using interfaces like MBox and others they become your "sound card" and you run monitoring system off those. What you see in PC many time is they combine the interface and sound card together as one card.

So no computer is immune from needing to be tweaked, just some need more than others. If you can decide first what software and cards you want to use, then use their system requirements to help you decide what computer and cards to get. Do that and you will be recording more and tweaking less.

[fretlessrock]

I used both PC and MAC DAW systems until recently, and now I am doing all of my work on Apple machines. Both OS X and Windows try to have software talk to hardware through the operating system. The interface firmware and the software side communicate through an "abstraction layer", and as long as they are both written using the same rules, they get along great.

My experience is that Apple developers (hardware and software) do a much better job of playing by the rules. One reason is that (IME and IMO) Apple is better at explaining the rules (developer support). That is why you can mix/match pretty much any hardware interface and software package. One major note: Digidesign (Pro Tools) has decided to stay locked to either their hardware, or M-Audio hardware for their M-powered line, regardless of which OS you use.

I use a small NI AudioKontrol interface, and a MOTU 896HD, as well as the internal audio, depending on the situation, and they all play fine with whatever software I have used.

[msquared]

Despite the propaganda, the line between PC and Mac is a lot more blurred than it used to be. You can get third party software and hardware for Macs just like you can with PCs and you can run into a lot of the same problems. Apple is no longer the high end exclusive closed system computer company it used to be.

Regardless of your computer, it's always advisable to only use it for recording if it's something that you depend on for your livelihood. If you're not, you can probably tolerate a reboot now and then to un-stick it. Just make sure you're not using Internet Explorer or Outlook on the Windows machine and you'll eliminate the bulk of the viruses and junk that will keep your machine from working properly.

At this point in the game the decision between Mac and PC mostly comes down to what you're comfortable with and what software you want to use. Either will work well. You can't get Sonar for Macs or Digital Performer for PCs. Stay away from Protools regardless.

I recommend checking out http://www.gearslutz.com if you want to ask serious questions about this stuff, by the way.

[stranger0]

+1 to everything that just got said

I made a comment to my Dad the other day, he's been around computers as long as I've been born and we were fiddling with my mac book pro and I was looking for a particular option but I couldn't get *that* specific thing I was looking for and the funny thing is, I know exactly where it was in Windows...well, that's when I realized that my mac had already carried out the option I was looking to turn on. Mac tends to be more intuitive I've found. Handling audio data is based in the same concept imo

[blipndub]

I've used both as well and now run a pc-based system ( I like Sonar) the advantages of smooth set up with mac are somewhat overridden by the need for a lot of power to really do extensive audio work. I had a "cheap" ibook and it didn't have the power to adequately handle the work i was doing, which wasn't really that much. So the power to price ratio is better with pcs and that's why i like them.

[Vin_MM_Sabre_79]

I think the posts here pretty well sum it up.

I have a G5, an imac and an AMD box here. Contrary to what you might think, the iMac is the most powerful and cheapest computer in the room. the downside is that the only thing you can upgrade is the RAM.

Macs are better at knowing whats going on around them and configuring themselves accordingly. Put it next to a wireless modem or plug it in to an ethernet port and it will ask you if you want to go online. Compare that to my AMD box- which periodically pops an alert telling me that it's having trouble 'dialing up' the server even though it doesn't have a modem installed.

The AMD can be upgraded but as the motherboard (socket 939) is now a couple of years old, options on that are now drying up. So I think the 'upgradability' of the PC is often overstated.

I think it depends on which OS you are most comfortable with. For me - Mac pwns

[SneakyT]

Wow that stayed friendly.

I too have used both extensively. Actually my degree is in studio recording. There is really no major difference in the hardware between the two any more so it really comes down to OS. I used to lean more towards the windows camp during the os9 days. If a windows system is setup properly it can and does function well as a daw if you do not change your setup. Once you start installing and uninstalling stuff you are likely to run into performance issues. Definately keep this thing away from the net and do a fresh install atleast once a year.

Until a better operating system comes along for the pc that is supported by the hardware and software vendors I will stick to OSX for most things. I could care a less about brand loyalty but as it stands right now it is less work to setup OSX machine and keep it running well and my time is too valuable to me. Apple's support for audio out of the box is much better than microsoft's too. I also have been using Logic since the atari days and doubt I will sway from that camp even though there are other great options out there. I also use performer and pro tools from time to time. I would definately reccomend learning as many sequncer/daws as possible as to keep your options open in the future.

One thing that I would reccomend to you if don't already have a PC is to consider getting a mac and a copy of xp so you have the option to run either. Long live choice.

[derrenleepoole]

This will open a can of worms......

Like it or not, Windows OS is still prone to virus infection even in XP. Mac is not without virus problems but by comparison this is very small indeed.

I think serious consideration needs to be given to this, because if you do start getting virus issues on a PC, your in a minefield of continually updating and running virus applications on top of your audio stuff, which in the long run will slow down your system significantly if not handled properly.

I have a friend who is forever upgrading and adjusting his system to accomodate virus protection on his PC. Downtime is lost time.

[Geezerman]

Originally Posted by derrenleepoole

This will open a can of worms......

Like it or not, Windows OS is still prone to virus infection even in XP. Mac is not without virus problems but by comparison this is very small indeed.

I think serious consideration needs to be given to this, because if you do start getting virus issues on a PC, your in a minefield of continually updating and running virus applications on top of your audio stuff, which in the long run will slow down your system significantly if not handled properly.

I have a friend who is forever upgrading and adjusting his system to accomodate virus protection on his PC. Downtime is lost time.

so not true brotha'

I look at iot like this

mac is "easier" but you pay a mark up for the name, pc is cheaper and has more software available.

[James Hart]

Originally Posted by derrenleepoole

This will open a can of worms......

Like it or not, Windows OS is still prone to virus infection even in XP. Mac is not without virus problems but by comparison this is very small indeed.

I think serious consideration needs to be given to this, because if you do start getting virus issues on a PC, your in a minefield of continually updating and running virus applications on top of your audio stuff, which in the long run will slow down your system significantly if not handled properly.

I have a friend who is forever upgrading and adjusting his system to accomodate virus protection on his PC. Downtime is lost time.

and macs never crash (not)!!


I was a mac tech (was listed on Apples site), I worked for Apple and I've owned 6 Macs, 1 Apple ][c, 2 Apple Quicktake cameras, 1 Apple laserwriter printer and a Newton.... I now run Windows XP pro on 2 laptops and 2 desktops (alone with a Linux machine too).

I like Window XP Pro... it's EXTREMELY stable for me. I average about 90 days uptime at a clip since I pieced it together. Only time it really goes down is every couple months I pull it out of my desk to open it up and blow the dust and fur out (pet owner).

My DAW for the last 3 years was a 1Ghz AMD Athlon (first gen) with 512mb of ram running a fully updated / patched (automatic) XP pro install. No tweaks to make it work for audio, not 'downtime' for virus protection issues. My wife's PC is still running the same install I put on that box when I built it in Jan of 2002! It's a new mobo and stuff now, but the OS drive is still that same install actually the AMD Duron it started as is now a P4


Mac vs Windows vs Linux is like Jazz vs Precision vs Warwick... it's mostly preference mixed with a little 'best tool for you needs'.



So again, my Sonar 4 runs on a stock but updated XP pro on (currently) an Athlon XP 2100 with 512mb of ram. It runs GREAT (but yes I want to upgrade the ram to 1.5gb that the board maxes out at).

[derrenleepoole]

Told you it would open a can of worms!

At the end of the day it's all personal choice, which I believe is what I said. However you sugar coat it though, while XP is more stable (substantially so) than it used to be, it's still very prone to virus attack compared to a Mac. And keeping a machine safe from that takes time and dedication. I personally feel that is something worth considering if you're looking at the pros and cons of each system.

I happen to prefer Macs. But Windows is a perfectly good OS.

[derrenleepoole]

Originally Posted by Geezerman

so not true brotha'

I look at iot like this

mac is "easier" but you pay a mark up for the name, pc is cheaper and has more software available.

Windows is 'easier' too now. Only becausel Bill Gates ripped off OS X




WAR!!!!!!!!!!

[Basshole]

The choice is no longer difficult. New Macs will run XP. BETTER AND FASTER THAN MOST BRANDS OF PC.

They'll even run Linux. In fact, you can triple boot. There is also no longer a price penalty for buying Apple.

A similarly configured tower from Dell has the same Intel motherboard, and costs about $150 LESS from Apple. Just don't screw up and pay to upgrade that tower, Apple will KILL YOU on upgrades. Buy aftermarket.

If you get a Mac, and dual boot OSX/Win, you will have the least expensive, most compatible system out there. It's now regular PC hardware, and there's no longer a reason to "choose". With Mac, you get it all (XP sold seperately ).

No brainer.

[bullshark]

I think there's a big hole in the Mac lineup. The Mac pro is overkill, and too expensive, for most users while the iMac is the opposite, not enough expandability/versatility for serious users. They should offer more options on the Mac pro, like a single Quad core instead of dual Xeon, at least 2 PCI instead of only 3 PCIe etc.

My Quadcore, p35 equipped tower cost me just a tad over 1000 buck; it's probably close in performance to the dual Xeon Mac pro, depending on how the software make use of the multi-core, and yet it is a lot more expendable and $1500.00 cheaper than the bottom of the line Mac pro. Can't run OSX and OSX only softwares thought, legally that is...

Oh, and Basshole, how the heck did you manage to gather so much misinformation in a single post?

[shwashwa]

the arugement that windows is more prone to viruses is not an issue for me as this computer (whatever it ends up being) will never go on the internet. with regards to mac running windows, i've heard (correct me if i'm wrong) that this is mostly intended for software applications like office siute and stuff, but when it comes to running sophisticated audio software, running windows on a mac can have serious hardware/soundcard compatability issues. i dont know this first hand, this is just what i was told by someone who sells both systems and was trying to help me decide. he didnt seem to be pushing me in one direction or another since he can sell me either, just giving advice, but you never know.....

[msquared]

Originally Posted by derrenleepoole

Like it or not, Windows OS is still prone to virus infection even in XP. Mac is not without virus problems but by comparison this is very small indeed.

There are two reasons for this, and neither has to do with Windows itself:
1) Outlook and Internet Explorer are substantially insecure due to their tendency to auto-run macros and scripts. These programs are used by many users instead of available alternatives (Opera, Firefox, Thunderbird, etc) and the result is the propagation of viruses.

2) Given that Win32 has a much larger and longtime user base, there is a lot more cracked software available for Windows. Many people are fond of using it instead of buying the legit product (or use it to see if the legit product is worth buying) and these also end up carrying viruses.

It is inaccurate and flat out ridiculous of you to suggest that the Windows itself has something inherent to it which OSX lacks that causes virus problems. If the audio computer isn't connected to the Internet and you're not using cracked software on it, you won't get viruses. I leave mine connected to the Internet and don't use any scanner software. I've never had any downtime on my audio machines from viruses in over a decade of using Windows for DAW work.

And please remember that OSX is Unix under the hood, and that the Morris Worm happened in '88.

Originally Posted by derrenleepoole

Windows is 'easier' too now. Only becausel Bill Gates ripped off OS X

Actually they both ripped off the Xerox Palo Alto Research Center, Jobs just managed to push a GUI to market first. At this point it's laughable to suggest that anyone has ripped anyone else off because everyone is ripping everyone else off WRT the specific design elements.

[Basshole]

Originally Posted by bullshark

Oh, and Basshole, how the heck did you manage to gather so much misinformation in a single post?

Well, that's very cute of you...but my experience?

Let's see...professional musician all my life...toured internationally for 15 years...worked a side gig as a computer network consultant for a number of years (owned my own consulting firm)...owned a studio...have worked for years as an engineer/producer/recordist...have been using ProTools since it was called SOUND TOOLS (used to do digital editing in the early days for Bell Labs when they were called Lucent here in NJ)...have a network with about 10 computers of various vintage and OSs currently running in my home...own my own Internet servers, and host my own stuff since 89.

Now, what part of what I said wasn't accurate?

[derrenleepoole]

See... it's SO easy to start a Mac versus XP debate... it's quite frankly ridiculous.

It's a pity that tongue in cheek humour obviously doesn't relate too well on these forums!

I'm only pulling your leg people - sheesh!

[derrenleepoole]

Originally Posted by msquared

There are two reasons for this, and neither has to do with Windows itself:
1) Outlook and Internet Explorer are substantially insecure due to their tendency to auto-run macros and scripts. These programs are used by many users instead of available alternatives (Opera, Firefox, Thunderbird, etc) and the result is the propagation of viruses.
.

You would think that if Microsoft went to all that trouble of updating and making more secure Windows XP & Vista etc... they'd go to the trouble of making secure 2 of their main applications (not counting their office products of course!)