loss of high end- need solutions!

cloren · #1 11-19-2008, 01:37 PM

I was in the studio the other day recording with a friend's hip hop group. I was playing a two hand tapping bass part which sounded great when it was played through an swr 12" combo when we wrote the tune; however when I plugged direct into the board much of the high end (right hand) was buried in the boominess of the left hand's bass notes.

When I played my bass acoustic it sounded fine- smooth, balanced- and so I thought maybe i should change the strings? again- no dice. the producer was opposed to micing the bass amp so instead he gave me a boost at around 2k which helped a bit- but I was wondering...

does anyone have any other solutions for getting the bass to sound smooth and even across the board? especially when it comes to two hand tapping stuff in both upper and lower registers?

(i researched the eden wt405 and that smart booster effect seemed like it could solve my problem- except that the amp is waaay out of my price range.)

4bpauly · #2 11-19-2008, 01:40 PM

not to be a jerk... but all i know is technique.

since you said it is fine acoustically, that doesn't necessarily mean it is the right technique...

if you are confident that it isn't the technique... depending on the board you are using, i would suggest a studio quality DI such as an Avalon... or even something like a Sansamp may clean it up a bit.

cloren · #3 11-19-2008, 01:54 PM

i was actually going through a radial passive DI- it sounded great!

at one point I switched to a sansamp bass driver, but that just about killed my tone (i have an onboard audere preamp)

4bpauly · #4 11-19-2008, 01:56 PM

hmmm.. i dunno then, i'm not a tapper

nicoli · #5 11-19-2008, 02:14 PM

Coming at it from more of a soundman's angle than a bass players here. I would a) try to eliminate the offending boomy frequency via high Q eq and b) hit it pretty hard with a compressor assuming technique is good.

If that still doesn't cut it, play with the high end of the frequency spectrum and try to find frequencies that can be boosted to improve clarity that don't interfere with frequencies of the other instrumentation or vocals on the song.

Of course I also wouldn't have a problem mic'ing your cab in studio, and don't see why any other engineer would either.

Ubersheist · #6 11-20-2008, 01:09 AM

If it's not the technique, then it's the equipment. What bass are you playing? For that type of technique, you probably need a very good, high end bass punching out a quality tone. If you're playing through anything other then a nice custom bass that cost you a few thousand, that may be your problem. It's funny - when bassists are playing relatively standard lines and not playing very aggressively, even that old Hofner Beatle bass can sound fantastic, but get in the wrong bass on a guy slapping the hell out of it, and the sound just deteriorates rapidly in the studio.

The next step is your other equipment. I've found that bass amps and preamps that sound great live doesn't usually transfer into the recording studio. Usually, I've either mic'ed the amp with a high quality mic to try to get that same live sound, or I've bypassed it all and gone direct into a studio-grade (not just high end bass amp-grade) preamp and a high end studio compressor. If you're working in a good studio with some good outboard equipment, be open to not using any of your equipment and going with theirs. It's made for studio work. It makes things sound better in the studio. Then again, if it is that nice of the studio, then either an engineer or producer should realize that, and it wouldn't be up to you as to what equipment you use....

Where's the weakest link on your signal chain between you and the hard drive (assuming that you're using ProTools)? It could be there, or it could be a chain of not-so-great studio equipment (although thye probably sound great live).

Ubersheist · #7 11-20-2008, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cloren

(i researched the eden wt405 and that smart booster effect seemed like it could solve my problem- except that the amp is waaay out of my price range.)

Well, you get what you pay for...

If this is a serious enough endeavor and it's really worth it, try renting. It's not easy to find, but since you're in the Bay Area, there should be a few studios or a boutique shop or two that'll rent you some high end equipment for studio work. I think you'll be impressed by how much better things sound in the studio through some good studio-specific equipment.

fullrangebass · #8 11-20-2008, 01:38 AM

I play a lot of two hand tapping, sliding and chordal stuff (and I mean recording as well as performing). The most balanced basses across the board and across the strings are my Dingwalls, bar none. And I hate using compressors, EQs or any other effect. Technique is the major part of the solution, as well as a great DI (the recording engineer can be of major help too)

atheos · #9 11-20-2008, 01:52 AM

Basically if the neck is straight, action good, pickups adjusted well and strings OK it's mostly technique issue. I've understood that if a pickup is in certain harmonic spot then certain notes boom if they have strong harmonics where the pickup is. Could be BS too so don't believe me unless somebody confirms this

Then there's also this fact that DI tone is quite a bit different from amp tone so your amp might kill the booming and boost the highs - since it's a 12" combo it's very possible. I don't know how you've set the knobs on the amp but I'd make a guess that the high end gets boosted there.

Why not record the bass through amp if it sound good there? I mean, whatever gets the job done is the right thing to do. If the engineer wants DI, put DI box and connect the link output to amp. While recording DI is often good idea with bass, it's not the absolute truth. I mean, trying to force some DI sound into the mix is just plain stupid if the bass is just better through the amp in every way. Or then the engineer just needs to compress and equalize it a little bit more.

The key question is, is the boominess random or on just a few notes or is it there all the time? If it's there all the time - well, fix it in the mix if you want DI or use the amp. Or get a preamp or a different DI or something like that. If it's random or just certain notes then there's something fishy either about your technique or your bass.

lemur821 · #10 11-20-2008, 02:08 AM

I wonder why he didn't want to mic the amp when he didn't have a better solution.

cloren · #11 11-20-2008, 02:30 AM

thanks for the feedback guys

I'm using a custom lecompte bass which has great action and smooth tone- this is my first experience recording with it.

I think the problem may be solved: I was the first guy to get into the studio. I recorded the bass to a click track and left for a few hours (damn day job) - it sounded good at that point

I came back later that night after the drums, guitar and scratch vocals had been recorded.

It was at that point that I realized the chorus (i.e. tapping section) had a serious drop in energy due to the bass line being muddy/indistinct- I think the issue (after having talked to the sound guy) may have been less about my instrument and more with the overall mix of the song up until that point.

IIRC the term is masking? whatever was going on- I think the other instruments were burying the right hand bass notes' frequencies in the mix. the sound guy said he still needed to mix it properly.

because this is a) my first time recording w/ the lecompte, b) first time recording a tapping line, and c) working with this group of musicians/engineers- the perfectionist in me was getting anxious.

I was assured that after mixing was done, each instrument would sound distinct- can't wait to hear how it sounds!

atheos · #12 11-20-2008, 03:26 AM

Yeah, if it sounded good when recording it's probably just the mix. You can only hope that the engineer knows how to get it right

I mean, getting the bass right in the mix isn't really an easy task and inexperienced engineer can ruin the whole thing by making some bad decisions. Ask to hear the mix before it goes into mastering and if you're not happy, give the guy some reference material and tell him that you want that type of sound and tell him to fix it. It's really his job to make it sound good and IMO it's his responsibility to create a product that satisfies the customer. Especially if the recorded material is good, you really can blame him. I've done mixing and studied it too so I really know that you don't get bad results from good material if you know what you're doing. And if the initial recorded track is somehow bad, it's the engineer's responsibility to either tell right away that "OK, there's this and that and I can't do miracles for this tone, it won't be horrible but still probably not as good as you'd like" or re-record the track to get it right.

Naturally I would trust the engineer but I know there are also a lot of people doing stuff without real knowledge about what they're doing, somehow they've just ended up mixing bands.

In any case you should not tolerate a bad end product. If it seems that the guy can't get it right, ask him to give you the multitrack sessions and give them to somebody else to mix. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

I'd love to hear some examples of the tone (especially the dry DI sound without any effects) but I understand it may not be possible until the song is done and it's too late to fix.