Making 16-bit better?

H_Wordsmythe · #1 02-26-2010, 10:04 PM

Hi all... My band has a recording studio in my basement, running a Fostex 16-bit multitracker. It was all we could afford back when we got it, and at the time I wasn't very informed on the cons of 16-bit, but we've since found it woefully inadequate for capturing the kick drum and bass, especially. The headroom is ridiculously low. In order to prevent clipping I have to drop these low frequency instruments to the point of having almost no tone whatsoever. So I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to make it better. I realize the best thing would be to simply ditch our gear and invest in a new 24-bit system (preferably NOT a multitracker - I'd love to have an interface for my PC), but we can't afford that right now. We also have a decent mixer that we use for our PA. Could running everything through that and then into the Fostex possibly provide us with more headroom? Or perhaps dropping the onboard preamps way down and then running all our instruments through stand-alone preamps? Sorry if these are stupid questions, but I'm not exactly a pro at this recording thing! Any help would be much appreciated!

otis_thick · #2 02-26-2010, 10:21 PM

Sounds like you are recording with input gain too loud! Compress the kick below clipping and make up the gain in the mix. Read the manual about setting levels....
0db read on an analog scale vu = ~ -12 to -20 on a digital meter reading 0dbfs (full scale) Its called the reference level in the manual..... when you reach 0dbfs that is = to +22 on an analog meter.....you shoul see a hash mark or a bold line in the middle of the meter scale.....that is were 0dbU would be on an analog scale. Also when playing back, listen at a level that allows got strong output when meter is at half to 2/3 from full peak. Limiting and monitoring gain sounds like your solution.

H_Wordsmythe · #3 02-26-2010, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by otis_thick

you are recording with input gain too loud! Compress the kick below clipping and make up the gain in the mix.

Thanks for the response! Sorry, I should have mentioned that I do run both the kick and the bass through an off-board compressor. But for some reason I haven't had any luck with that! I'm using settings recommended in a "Home Recording for Dummies" book. But I suppose I could be setting the input gain too high? I'll play around with it and see what I can do...

lowfreq33 · #4 02-26-2010, 10:41 PM

No disrespect, but you should do a little more research on how digital audio works. 16 bit has exactly the same amount of headroom as 24 bit, what it lacks is dynamic range. 0 db is 0 db regardless of your bit rate. The extra 8 bits are actually at the bottom of the dynamic range. The real benefit in a 24 bit system is in the signal to noise ratio.

That being said, I've been down the same path as you, I also started on a Fostex 16 track. The biggest downside to those units is the analog to digital converters aren't very good. You could certainly add a few nice outboard preamps and compressors to your setup, and that would help a lot, but you'll have to spend some money to see an improvement.

If you're on a budget I'd suggest maybe a Presonus Eureka to start with. I've heard that their Studio Channel is also good, it's about $200 cheaper, but I don't personally have any experience with it. Stay away from the ART Tube MP, and the TPS as well, they won't improve the sound at all. However, the ART MPA and VLA are not bad at all for the price.

You could also look into an external A/D converter. This would go into the ADAT lightpipe input on your Fostex (at least if you have the unit I'm guessing you do). This will bypass the internal converters and you'll probably feel like you're taking a blanket off of your speakers. Good quality converters can be quite expensive, but a very inexpensive solution can be found in the Behringer ADA 8000 at $200. Before I get flamed for reccommending a Behringer product let me say that this is the ONLY thing they make that I consider to be a decent product. The only thing with that is that you'll also need external preamps to feed it, which means more $.

But if you want to kill two birds with one stone I'd say hands down get the Presonus Digimax FS. $600, has eight very decent pres, and ADAT conversion built in. It also has inserts on every pre, so you can insert a compressor or eq before you send it to your recorder. I wouldn't say the preamps necessarily add any character the way a $2000 pre would, but they're very clean and much better than what's on the Fostex.

I know you mentioned wanting to go to a computer based setup, that would be great if you had the budget, but I'll just tell you that you need a pretty powerful computer to handle a multitrack recording program, as well as a decent interface. You'd end up spending at least $3000 for a basic system that probably wouldn't get you much better results than your Fostex. And you'd still need a couple of good outboard pres as well.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions, I've been working as an engineer for a while now, and I don't mind sharing my knowledge with others. Maybe I can save you from making some mistakes or buying crap gear.

sonic assassin · #5 02-27-2010, 01:23 AM

i record at 16bit and my stuff sounds spectacular haha. the issue is in how its coming in or out.

the real difference in quality comes from bit RATE, not bit DEPTH. that extra few bits helps, but the rate is most important. everything sounds better at 88.2 instead of 44.1. then its mashed down to 44.1 to go to media, but it sounds better mixing it up there before its brought down.

H_Wordsmythe · #6 02-27-2010, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowfreq33

No disrespect, but you should do a little more research on how digital audio works. 16 bit has exactly the same amount of headroom as 24 bit, what it lacks is dynamic range. 0 db is 0 db regardless of your bit rate. The extra 8 bits are actually at the bottom of the dynamic range. The real benefit in a 24 bit system is in the signal to noise ratio.

That being said, I've been down the same path as you, I also started on a Fostex 16 track. The biggest downside to those units is the analog to digital converters aren't very good. You could certainly add a few nice outboard preamps and compressors to your setup, and that would help a lot, but you'll have to spend some money to see an improvement.

If you're on a budget I'd suggest maybe a Presonus Eureka to start with. I've heard that their Studio Channel is also good, it's about $200 cheaper, but I don't personally have any experience with it. Stay away from the ART Tube MP, and the TPS as well, they won't improve the sound at all. However, the ART MPA and VLA are not bad at all for the price.

You could also look into an external A/D converter. This would go into the ADAT lightpipe input on your Fostex (at least if you have the unit I'm guessing you do). This will bypass the internal converters and you'll probably feel like you're taking a blanket off of your speakers. Good quality converters can be quite expensive, but a very inexpensive solution can be found in the Behringer ADA 8000 at $200. Before I get flamed for reccommending a Behringer product let me say that this is the ONLY thing they make that I consider to be a decent product. The only thing with that is that you'll also need external preamps to feed it, which means more $.

But if you want to kill two birds with one stone I'd say hands down get the Presonus Digimax FS. $600, has eight very decent pres, and ADAT conversion built in. It also has inserts on every pre, so you can insert a compressor or eq before you send it to your recorder. I wouldn't say the preamps necessarily add any character the way a $2000 pre would, but they're very clean and much better than what's on the Fostex.

I know you mentioned wanting to go to a computer based setup, that would be great if you had the budget, but I'll just tell you that you need a pretty powerful computer to handle a multitrack recording program, as well as a decent interface. You'd end up spending at least $3000 for a basic system that probably wouldn't get you much better results than your Fostex. And you'd still need a couple of good outboard pres as well.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions, I've been working as an engineer for a while now, and I don't mind sharing my knowledge with others. Maybe I can save you from making some mistakes or buying crap gear.

Haha... No dis taken, dude, and I appreciate all the info! Yeah, I'm probably using a lot of incorrect terminology, but it sounds like you got my meaning - I always thought headroom was the right word for what I'm looking for and I've read a bit that reinforced that notion, but it's entirely likely I misinterpreted what I read, as I don't have much experience or knowledge in this area. So - dynamic range, eh? I'll have to read up on that.

Yeah, you're guessing right regarding which Fostex we've got - as a matter of fact, I was looking at that very Behringer unit a while ago but never pulled the trigger. Maybe I should revisit that.

Well I build PC's as a side-business/hobby, so my own machine is already plenty beefy enough for recording - 3.4GHz quad-core with 4GB RAM and plenty of HDD space. So I'm covered on that front!

Thanks a ton for the offer to advise!! I may take you up on that!

otis_thick · #7 02-27-2010, 12:39 PM

This should help...scroll down to "Analog vs Digital levels"

http://architechweb.infocommiq.com/A...DigAudLvls.pdf

crazyBassClown · #8 03-06-2010, 11:37 PM

i really doubt that 16 bit is your problem. typical guitar and bass equipment is noisy enough that even 16y bit is overkill and all you end up doing is recording the noise with greater precision at 24-bit
The problem is probably trying to record too bass heavy with not enough mids.
"Tone" is all in the mids.
Changing the eq of the incoming signal will probably be a better start.

http://www.recordingreview.com is a great resource on recording.