Mic placement question

chaotick · #1 12-30-2009, 11:07 AM

I have two mics, one is the Shure Beta 58A and the other is a cheap-o DR-VX1.

I will be using Mics > Mixer > Line-In > Logic to record scratch tracks to work with separately from my guitarists.

When I mic the cabinet using both mics, do you think I'd receive better results using the Shure as the speaker mic and the DR as the room mic -- or visa versa?

Also, any other tips greatly appreciated, TYIA!

pasta4lnch · #2 12-30-2009, 11:17 AM

what is the DR (condensor?) I usually put the dynamics right up on the grill either straight on or off axis. a condensor room mic either a few feet back straight on or perpendicular to the cab.

If you're blending w/ a DI the 58 should be enough . . . but let your ears tell you.

theNoseBleedKid · #3 12-30-2009, 06:24 PM

I find if I put a Microphone right near the grill it gets very middy and harsh, the further back I go the more bassy and muddy the sound gets. So a mix to taste along that scale.

SpamBot · #4 12-30-2009, 06:29 PM

Actually, you will get more bass directly on the grill, due to the proximity effect.

Charling · #5 12-30-2009, 06:50 PM

I would not use a room mic, with pairs of mics on one cab I have found they either need to be properly capsule aligned (ie, the bit which actually reacts to the incoming sound on each mic is the same distance away for the cab) so they are completely 'in phase', or the room mic needs to be far enough back to not phase badly with the close mic.

Bass is a bit non-directional, so a room mic may phase a bit worse with a close mic compared to the same setup with a guitar amp. If it ends up sounding cool then awesome, but be prepared for one or the other mic not being useable in the mixdown!

I would have both mics capsule aligned, as close together as possible and about 6" off the cab as a start. I like the sound of mics just off the center of the cone, a bass needs that larger than life extension you get in the center of the cone. the thinning effect as you get to the edge is not something I am into, but you may like the clear definition you get on the outer regions of the speaker.

If you can't decide maybe have the mics capsule aligned but one of them on the edge of the speaker, one in the middle. The characteristics of the mics will determine what works best. Once you have both signals going in they should, if phase aligned, work together well. If you have one mic in full and then bring up the other it should change the character of the sound without messing up the frequency balance. Then you can work out what you like best. If you want the sound to loose definition and sit back more then move the mics backwards from the speaker, together, if you want an even more clinical sound then a few inches forward may work.

experiment, and as long as you are always aware of phase and what the two mics are doing together, you will be ok. Theres nothing more annoying than having two mics that sound great individually which sound rubbish together, even when manually phase aligned!

sonic assassin · #6 12-30-2009, 08:09 PM

room mics are pretty unnecessary unless you have a REALLY good sounding room.

dead center on the cone can often be annoying. put your ear to the speaker and put your mic exactly where you hear something you like. record 4 bars and decide if you like it.

with 2 mics, the normal application is to put them in 2 different places and mix to taste. if you're talking about varying distances from the sound source, you're begging for phase issues. try putting one in the center and one off center, same distance. you can decide if you like the brighter track or the darker track when mixing.

or put them in the same place, but put one off axis for a different response.

or put one close and one back a couple inches, so you can pick one or the other later to (as previously stated) see if you like the cleaner right up close sound, or the less sterile pulled back sound.

really, for scratch tracks, one mic in the mix will do it

theNoseBleedKid · #7 12-30-2009, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpamBot

Actually, you will get more bass directly on the grill, due to the proximity effect.

I'm far from an epert, but I'll stand by what I've heard during miking my own stuff.

JimmyM · #8 12-31-2009, 01:06 AM

what happens is you get less high end with the room mic. prox effect also works on highs. dispersion of the mids and highs can also have an effect.

whoatherechunk · #9 01-02-2010, 02:41 AM

Interesting stuff. Knowing how room mics affect the mix is intriguing but I'm guess is not slways necessary and can be considered superfluous at times.

phatphillss · #10 01-02-2010, 10:14 AM

What ive heard and do in this case. Shure mic 1-6 inches off the grill that varys a bit.like someone else said put your ears up to your amp listen for where you like, and shure mic should go to the edge ring of the speaker (not center) 1-6 inches off grill and condessor mic with a preamp center of room that might varry to by room so you do tracks and move it around once done remember where you put everything takes some time but pays in the end.

Charling · #11 01-02-2010, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phatphillss

What ive heard and do in this case. Shure mic 1-6 inches off the grill that varys a bit.like someone else said put your ears up to your amp listen for where you like, and shure mic should go to the edge ring of the speaker (not center) 1-6 inches off grill and condessor mic with a preamp center of room that might varry to by room so you do tracks and move it around once done remember where you put everything takes some time but pays in the end.

sorry man, I know your intent was to help but thats some pretty vague advice!

Saying a 'shure mic' could be anything from a cheapo PG range to a very nice expensive condenser and lots more besides, they would all sound very different! I guess you mean a sm58 or sm57, not the choice of many but valid nevertheless. EDIT - sorry, did you mean the OP's beta-58A?

And you say 'a condensor mic' (I don't think his DR thing is a condensor..) which is quite vague! That could be one of hundreds, probably thousands of VERY different sounding mics! And you say 'with a preamp', what about the preamp for the shure mic? they will both need one!

And if you only have 1 ok preamp I would certainly put it on the close mic of a bass cab!

Lastly, if you only have 2 mics the general consensus of this thread, which I agree wholeheartedly with, is to NOT use a room mic. Put your condenser next to your shure and capsule align them. try and get them to capture 2 cool areas of the basses frequency spectrum by moving them off and on center while still staying nice and in phase.

You need a very good room and a VERY good reason to need a room mic on a bass cab! And you'd better be prepared to do a lot of moving about and maybe a bit of filtering to get them to stay nice and in phase with each other! For any normal bass sound its normally not worth it.

Charling · #12 01-02-2010, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

what happens is you get less high end with the room mic. prox effect also works on highs. dispersion of the mids and highs can also have an effect.

hmm, thats interesting, I have never heard of proximity effect effecting the highs... Its a result of the way we get microphones to be 'directional' using chambers in the mic etc. and is as far as I know only a low end phenomena. I would imagine the high end dropoff is more likely to do with cancellations within the room and the relative fragility of high end frequencies...

ie the close mic gets a chance to capture these frequencies right off the cones, wheras the mic further back captures more of a picture of the sound in the room, AFTER a lot of of the highs have dispersed and been absorbed etc.

I'm happy to be proved wrong though! Acoustics is not my strong point! I just put things where they sound nice

phatphillss · #13 01-03-2010, 09:09 AM

condessor = preamp because of the phantom power NO WRONG. I said shure because its a general mic that most have.model of the mic well not a vocal one. I kept it vage because it varrys a lot.Size of room and gear.xct
Im not a tech and dont have a lot of understanding of room sound mics and mixing but just posted what i do and seen.

Charling · #14 01-03-2010, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phatphillss

condessor = preamp because of the phantom power NO WRONG. I said shure because its a general mic that most have.model of the mic well not a vocal one. I kept it vage because it varrys a lot.Size of room and gear.xct
Im not a tech and dont have a lot of understanding of room sound mics and mixing but just posted what i do and seen.

Ok fair enough, I didn't mean to be in any way out of order, I just want to put rest to a few misconceptions!

preamps don't always have phantom, phantom boxes don't always have a preamp

phantom power is just an extra built into some preamps. Every mic needs a preamp not matter WHAT sort it is, so mentioning a preamp for the condensor but not the dynamic and not mentioning anything about phantom power (in your original post) is a little misleading!

But yeah, you will need some way of providing phantom power for the condensor.

Many mics famous for vocals are also great on bass cabs