Microphone for a vintage bass tone

[ciledehcysp]

hi,

I need help finding a mic that won't color my tone too much while maintaining the low end and still sounding vintage.

Until now I always had a Sennheiser E 602 and I really wasn't satisfied with the results. For my taste it was too bassy, too boomy, too scooped and not well balanced.

Then I tried a friend's cheap condenser mic (T.Bone SC450, 100 Euros) and liked it much more, though it isn't designed for bass.
It sounds much more vintage,...like the bass you hear on recordings of the late sixties (Grateful Dead, Jefferson Airplane) and that's what I'm looking for. It's loosing a little bit of low end but otherwise it's fine.

So I will probably buy a better condenser but I'm not sure which. I don't plan spending more than 500/600 Euros.. 200-300 would be better

My setup is: Fender Jazz Bass, Orange AD200-B + Sunn Sonic-1-40 into Ampeg 810.

Thank you!!

[fokof]

A 602 is a kick mic , it has a scooped mid type of sound. Not flat at all.

I had good success with my Octavia ML52 to give a "vintage-ish" tone.
It's a ribbon mike , that gives a "darker" sound.
No hi-fi sound here.
The drawback is that it needs a VERY good preamp.
Marvelous on horns.

A SM57 as close mike and a condenser as a room mike might also do the trick. Once the phases are OK can do wonders.

[JimmyM]

a sm57 and a di also makes for an excellent vintage bass tone with all the lows + mic'ed amp sound.

but for a single mic solution, the heil pr 40 is a fantastic mic for anything. it's a lot like an re 20 but it has better low end extension. the re 20 is also great, but the heil is $75 less

[Charling]

AKG D12? (NOT a D112!) they sound pretty old school, fantastic on kicks too but without the usual kick scoop. Well within your budget, lots of people like them on vocals too, not made anymore though so its a second hand job.

An ev re20 would also do the trick! Haven't heard the heil mentioned.

It sounds obvious but you essentially want a mic based on quite an old design,

any ribbon mic pretty much (though be VERY careful of a ribbon in front of a loud bass cab, use it off axis a little and maybe with a pop sheild, a little further back than normal to be sure!)

Or a Sennheiser 421 (the older white ones maybe slightly more, but they are pretty similar to the new black ones), or just a 57 as mentioned above.

If you dig a bit deeper you could get a really old gem for very cheap, maybe something like an AKG d19. A good thing to do is just search 'microphone' on ebay and trawl through all the endless results checking out anything that looks cool, old and cheap and then google it. Sometimes it doesn't mention what they are (normally because the seller doesn't know!) and thats when you get the real bargains.

A friend got a coles 4038 for £200 ish because it was labelled simply 'heavy duty microphone!' haha!

[fokof]

Originally Posted by Charling

any ribbon mic pretty much (though be VERY careful of a ribbon in front of a loud bass cab, use it off axis a little and maybe with a pop sheild, a little further back than normal to be sure!)

My ML52 has an SL of 135db.
That's a lot louder than any bass amp could ever produce.

Others may have a lesser SPL limit but the fragility of a ribbon mike is in the manipulation , not SPL.

[JimmyM]

i wouldn't do a ribbon if you're planning to use it live, but i sure would like to hear my b-15 recorded with one of those ml-52's in front of it!

[Charling]

Originally Posted by fokof

My ML52 has an SL of 135db.
That's a lot louder than any bass amp could ever produce.

Others may have a lesser SPL limit but the fragility of a ribbon mike is in the manipulation , not SPL.

I know,

but some bass cabs gives out a lot of AIR as well, and wind rushing past a micro meter thick ribbon ruins it real quick if you don't pay attention to basic ribbon 'good practice'. Normally just slightly off axis is enough, or you can use a pop shield to be absolutely sure!

I agree with Jimmy though, certainly not one for live for a few reasons!

[TL5]

Let's see, what' s been mentioned;

RE20 √
MD421 √
SM57 √
SM7b... wait.. well the oft forgotten SM7 is a great all around choice as well.

[fokof]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

i wouldn't do a ribbon if you're planning to use it live, but i sure would like to hear my b-15 recorded with one of those ml-52's in front of it!

I have that combo (ML52 & B15) and it sure is a winner !
I wouldn't bring it live either.

And like I said earlier , it needs a VERY good preamp. Needs a lot of gain , and you don't want the noise floor of a cheaper preamp.
I use my Bryston BMP2 with the ML52.

[pasta4lnch]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

a sm57 and a di also makes for an excellent vintage bass tone with all the lows + mic'ed amp sound.

BIG +1

if you wanna get crazy Mercenary Audio sells 57's w/ better tranny's in them . . . been dying to try one - I'm back on a 57 kick. w/ all the mics I have, I'm always impressed at how much I use that one (it's one of the cheapest mics I own)

[kalle74]

Originally Posted by fokof

My ML52 has an SL of 135db.
That's a lot louder than any bass amp could ever produce.

Others may have a lesser SPL limit but the fragility of a ribbon mike is in the manipulation , not SPL.

It´s common to think that SPL ratings are all that matters. Ribbon mics seriously suffer from strong air turbulence, as do LDC´s.

For example, many pro studios use U47´s on kick drums, but usually they are marked "kick" after use, because their capsules take serious beating, and thus, their high-end gets wool-y for other purposes (f.ex. vocals)...

Same with ribbons and extreme air pressure... The ribbon will eventually get stressed and possibly streched beyond it´s capabilities.

So, be careful with your prized mics...

[fokof]

You're right but I like to think that the numbers represents actual testing in front of drivers , wich moves air.
It's common knowledge that Ribbon mikes are the most fragile of all, generaly speaking. I would not bring one live.

[joshmickelson]

I'd be curious how one of the Joly octavamods sounds on bass.

http://www.oktavamod.com/

[Ubersheist]

Are you happy with your tone as you hear it in the studio? It sounds like you may not be. If that's the case, there's not much you can do.

I'd suggest using a hollowbody bass maybe with flatwounds to really get a vintage sound. An overdriven tube amp may help, too. Those bands you mentioned usually played them, and that was what stuck out to me in your post - you might always be disappointed if you use a Jazz bass.

I'd suggest looking at your equipment first, and try to recreate a rig that they played back then. That'll get you a retro sound faster and easier then trying to mold one out of more modern equipment.

Also, a good old compressor can help too, if you have a moderate to late attack time and a fairly quick release (depending on your bass line).

I may be wrong, but it sorta sounds like the equipment is an issue. A "too bassy" mic might bug you, but it may not be as critical to the tone and overall feel for the song as the equipment.

[ciledehcysp]

Thanks for your help. I know, my bass isn't an old one, but the Sunn comes right from 1969 and also the Orange even though it's a new model sounds very vintage to my ears.
I am quite satisfied with my sound as it comes out from the speakers. The problem really was that i wasn't satisfied after it was recorded, meaning it was too colored and not the same anymore.

I have now found an older Audio Technica AT 4033a for a good price, which is known for a very linear uncolored eq.
I also liked the SM57. Probably I will use them both.
I also hope I can try a EV-20 soon.

[markjazzbassist]

i've got a vintage sennheiser (70's) 421 that i use. sounds fantastic. check these guys out for some great buys (german)

http://www.madooma.com/

it's where i got my 421, and you can get akg d12's, and other vintage rare mint pieces. pretty reasonable too.

[projectMalamute]

Originally Posted by ciledehcysp

I have now found an older Audio Technica AT 4033a for a good price, which is known for a very linear uncolored eq.

That's a really wonderful and underrated mic. I use mine all the time.

[bigsack]

AKG D12? (NOT a D112!) they sound pretty old school, fantastic on kicks too but without the usual kick scoop. Well within your budget, lots of people like them on vocals too, not made anymore though so its a second hand job.

An ev re20 would also do the trick! Haven't heard the heil mentioned.

+1

vintage with no treble that's the EV RE20

[Decedo]

I did some recording last night and used an SM57 and a 421 (mid-position) on an early 80's SVT and it sounded great. The 421 really caught the Ampeg growl nicely, when mixed with the 57.

[maxgrant]

Originally Posted by kalle74

It´s common to think that SPL ratings are all that matters. Ribbon mics seriously suffer from strong air turbulence, as do LDC´s.

For example, many pro studios use U47´s on kick drums, but usually they are marked "kick" after use, because their capsules take serious beating, and thus, their high-end gets wool-y for other purposes (f.ex. vocals)...

Same with ribbons and extreme air pressure... The ribbon will eventually get stressed and possibly streched beyond it´s capabilities.

So, be careful with your prized mics...

I was watching the special features for the movie "Pick of Destiny." They got Ronnie James Dio to do one of the songs, and one of the anecdotes he told was of utterly destroying a ribbon mic with his voice. I guess he was taught to project quite loudly (as was I, learning to sing in an 80-member choir). I only recently allowed someone else to record me singing and they were sitting next to me covering their ears it was so loud -- so I will probably just never try to use a ribbon mic. I'd hate to wreck something so elegant . . .