Mixer Recommendations

maku · #1 03-04-2009, 01:52 PM

I'm looking for a mixer to use for recording a band live.

The band is a 4 piece, so I think 8 track input should cover it (3 x vocal mics, 1 x guitar mic, 1 x bass via sansamp, 3 x mic for drums) with a 2 channel output.

I'll need all 8 mics in use simultaneously going into the mixer to set levels, then the output going into my Apogee Duet, into my Mac. Ideally putting the lead vocal on its own channel and the rest through the other.

It would also be great if the mixer could be used within Logic for setting levels, pan etc.

Any recommendations much appreciated.

lambro · #2 03-04-2009, 02:35 PM

Oram 8T

maku · #3 03-04-2009, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lambro

Oram 8T

Unfortunately that is a little out of my price range. I'm looking for something low budget - under £300 ($500)

joeyjazz · #4 03-04-2009, 03:36 PM

You aren't going to get anything new in that price range worth buying (read: Behringer). I'd shop around for used stuff by Allen and Heath, Soundcraft, Mackie or possibly Carvin. In that order. All of them make relatively solid and clean sounding boards with 8+ mic inputs and a stereo out, the A&H and Soundcraft boards have the added advantage of giving you decent sounding EQ as well (if that's something you'd need).

maku · #5 03-04-2009, 04:06 PM

The A&H Zed 14 is looking promising but only has 6 XLR inputs.

I need to use 8 mics - is it possible to put a mic into the stereo channels?

Projectile · #6 03-04-2009, 04:36 PM

I got a brand new Soundcraft 12 channel mixer (8 XLR inputs) off ebay a few years ago for $250. It can be done.

You can plug mics into the stereo channels, but then you would need separate, stand alone mic preamps.

Note that you can also piggy back mixers together. When recording bands live I would usually do a pre-mix of the drums on a cheap yamaha 6 channel mixer, and then send them into a stereo input on an 8 channel Mackie. Worked like a charm.

Also beware that drums always sound WAY better in stereo. Using one side of your stereo input for vocals may seem like a good idea, but looking at the the big picture I would rather have a nice stereo mix with a few vocal flubs, than a boring mono mix with great vocals. Typically, the minimal setup for drums would be 4 mics: 2 overheads panned stereo, bass mic, and snare mic. It's hard to get away with anything less. I've tried.

limbo · #7 03-04-2009, 04:48 PM

Three mics on a kit is pretty light. It can be done well (search for the 'Recorderman' technique) but there's no reason to buy something in your budget that doesn't have enough inputs.

Look for a used Mackie 1604 or something similar - others have mentioned Soundcraft - there were a few 16ch boards in their low-end Spirit series and of course there's the current EPM series. Allen+Heath have options here too.

Soloing the vox on a mono channel and trying to mix the rest of the band into another mono channel seems, well, less than useful if your intent was to present this recording later, but we don't have much info on your application other than recording a live act.

MB

Projectile · #8 03-04-2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maku

It would also be great if the mixer could be used within Logic for setting levels, pan etc.

How would that be possible if you are feeding everything into your 2 channel duet? Do you want a midi control surface? Do you want a mixer with 8 channels of AD/DA and digital output? I don't quite understand what you are expecting. You are looking at $1000+ for anything like that.

Alaska Bass · #9 03-04-2009, 04:56 PM

Alesis Studio 32 has 16 mic pre's, great eq (for the price), direct out and tape in (for recording and monitoring post tape), and lots of other great stuff. Used they go for $250-$450. Mackie also has the 24*8 or 32*8 boards that are great for recording too. They offer the mic pre's with direct out and alternate tape in as well for monitoring post tape.

*Disclaimer* I am selling one of the Alesis Studio 32's right now on eBay, but that does not steer my recommendation. I believe in this specific model of mixer, and am not trying to just advertise for mine.

Projectile · #10 03-04-2009, 05:06 PM

Or you could just get something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/M-Audio-Fast-Tra...3%3A1|294%3A50

Then you wouldn't have to worry about setting levels with a mixer, because you could do it all inside your mac. You could add effects to individual channels, automate levels, panning, overdubs, everything that you could do in a normal recording studio.

maku · #11 03-05-2009, 09:55 AM

Ok, so I think I was stretching, trying to get a do-everything unit for a budget price.

Thanks for all the responses - definitely gave me pause for thought.

After prioritising - this is what I want:

mic'd up instruments and vocals into a mixer/amp (inc stereo'd drums)
vocals to be heard through monitors (so also replacing our old crap pa amp)
stereo output to my 2 channel Apogee Duet

Now I know this won't give me the opportunity to go back and adjust levels at a later date. But as the mixer/amp will be sitting permanently in our rehearsal space, once we have the levels right, they shouldn't need to be changed.

So I've shortlisted it down to:

Soundcraft GigRac 1000st

Yamaha EMX512SC

What are people's thoughts on these units? Also is it really worth spending twice as much on a Mackie 808M/S?

Projectile · #12 03-05-2009, 10:28 AM

Are you sure that you really need a powered mixer? I doubt the amps in either of those would be any better than whatever crap PA amp you have now. I usually try to avoid powered mixers altogether.

HogieWan · #13 03-05-2009, 10:37 AM

I have an M-Audio NRV10. It's a great little mixer and has a computer audio interface built-in. Every channel as well as the main mix is an input (and output) in the computer over firewire

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/NRV10.html

Jehos · #14 03-05-2009, 11:41 AM

I own a EMX512SC, a Duet, and a MacBook that I have used for recording.

It's possible to record with the 512, but it kind of sucks. We use it for our practice room PA that we take to small gigs that don't have PA support. The problem is that what sounds good through the PA isn't necessarily a good recording mix. What we do is mix using the monitor knobs, and run the monitor output to the Duet (from the front, *NOT* the powered ones on the back!). It works, but it's not great.

What I did to work around that was to buy a Presonus FireStudio Project. It's right at $500, but it's got 8 ins and 8 outs, so it can sit in front of our PA as a pass-through device that records all 8 channels to 8 separate tracks. This lets us do mixdown after the fact. I got it primarily to track the drums, with scratch takes for guitar/bass/vocals. Those will be laid down over the drum tracks using the Duet's superior preamps and A/D converters.

If all you need the mixer for is recording, I *highly* recommend you go this route. I've been banging my head against the Duet for a good long while now. It's an *excellent* tool for track-at-a-time, but you just can't record a band well with it.

Edit: Knowing what I know now, my dream setup would be a Mackie Onyx 1640 with the firewire add-on. 16 solid preamps, 16 tracks plus the main mix go over firewire to be recorded. Add a couple power amps and it replaces my Duet, Presonus, and EMX512. Of course when you add the power amps we're talking $3000 instead of the $1500 you pay for the other 3 pieces new. Still, I wish I'd just saved up the extra money and gone with 16 tracks. At some point that's probably what I'll end up doing, because it will make recording our live shows *much* easier. Just a firewire cable to a laptop and a club performance becomes a studio performance as well.

RustyAxe · #15 03-05-2009, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyjazz

You aren't going to get anything new in that price range worth buying (read: Behringer).

Actually, a Yamaha MG124CX is less than that ... so is a MG166CX. Decent preamps, lots of routing options, one-knob compression on some channels, multiple input source/connector types. I've been lovin' my MG166CX since I got it. The MG166CX is also available with USB for a stereo direct to your computer connection. Pretty good bang for the buck (or quid, as the case may be).

maku · #16 03-05-2009, 03:15 PM

Thanks Jehos for some great insight.

At the moment the recording will only take place at our rehearsal space, not at gigs where we go through the house PA.

I'd really like for the unit to replace our rehearsal vocals amp (has to be over 30 years old and dead), then double up as setting the levels to record demos onto the laptop.

I understand what you're saying about a live mix is not right as a recording mix, but as we only want the actual vocals coming out of the PA speakers, can't we set all the levels on the EMX512SC to be right for the recording.

Then turn the 'MONITOR' level on all non-vocal tracks down to zero?

Then adjust the 'MASTER MONITOR' level to get the vocals the right volume to the drums/guitar/bass amps to play along with (as we normally do).

Then the 'REC OUT' will take the main mix and EQ out in Stereo into the 2 Duet channels?

Projectile · #17 03-06-2009, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maku

Thanks Jehos for some great insight.

At the moment the recording will only take place at our rehearsal space, not at gigs where we go through the house PA.

I'd really like for the unit to replace our rehearsal vocals amp (has to be over 30 years old and dead), then double up as setting the levels to record demos onto the laptop.

I understand what you're saying about a live mix is not right as a recording mix, but as we only want the actual vocals coming out of the PA speakers, can't we set all the levels on the EMX512SC to be right for the recording.

Then turn the 'MONITOR' level on all non-vocal tracks down to zero?

Then adjust the 'MASTER MONITOR' level to get the vocals the right volume to the drums/guitar/bass amps to play along with (as we normally do).

Then the 'REC OUT' will take the main mix and EQ out in Stereo into the 2 Duet channels?

If you need a new PA amp then buy a new PA amp. If you need a mixer, then buy a mixer. I just don't think powered mixers are a good investment, but that's just my opinion.

I still don't understand why you wouldn't just go with an 8 input recording interface. It seems like a far better solution to what you are trying to do. You don't need to run the other instruments through the PA, right? So, other than vocals, the mixer is just going to be for recording, right? Seems like it would make a lot more sense to get a 8 input recording interface and then deal with the vocal PA situation separately. It just seems like you are trying to tackle two entirely different problems with one piece of gear that isn't going to be an ideal solution to either problem. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

maku · #18 03-06-2009, 02:44 AM

Projectile, I totally hear and agree with what you're saying - in almost all cases its better to have audio separates than a combined unit. However budget is unfortunately an issue here.

The cost of the 3 separate units (mixer, pa amp, recording interfeace) will cost 3 times as much as just the powered mixer.

I know inititally that I'll only be able to record 2 tracks simultaneously, but later on I can add the 8 channel interface, and the powered mixer will still continue to be a suitable solution for our PA (which again is only for our rehersal space and not for gigging with).

If an existing EMX512SC user can confirm/deny my routing idea above, then that will of course be a major influence in the decision.

TerenceSharp · #19 03-06-2009, 06:20 AM

Soundcraft EPM8?

If you get an 8 channel interface later you can use the insert points as direct outs to the interface too. (An autio interface WITHOUT mic pres, of course; Such as the M-Audio 1010LT - The 1010lt is PCI however.)

Jehos · #20 03-06-2009, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maku

Thanks Jehos for some great insight.

At the moment the recording will only take place at our rehearsal space, not at gigs where we go through the house PA.

I'd really like for the unit to replace our rehearsal vocals amp (has to be over 30 years old and dead), then double up as setting the levels to record demos onto the laptop.

I understand what you're saying about a live mix is not right as a recording mix, but as we only want the actual vocals coming out of the PA speakers, can't we set all the levels on the EMX512SC to be right for the recording.

Then turn the 'MONITOR' level on all non-vocal tracks down to zero?

Then adjust the 'MASTER MONITOR' level to get the vocals the right volume to the drums/guitar/bass amps to play along with (as we normally do).

Then the 'REC OUT' will take the main mix and EQ out in Stereo into the 2 Duet channels?

Um...yeah, I think that will work. Ours is wired the other way, the main outs go to the speakers and the monitor outs are the recording levels. You're just flip-flopping those if I understand right. It should work, I'm just saying my experience was a pain in the butt. You'd probably be better off with a Zoom H2 set on a boom stand to one side of the room. That would force you to mix yourselves better, and that's always a useful skill.