mixing live

[bassman040]

i play in a church of about 200-300, and the sound desk is usually run by some musicians or the occassional sound guy. From what i see, the FOH system we have is pretty decent. We've got two huge subs under the stage, but by the placing of the rest of the speakers, it seems the FOH was designed more for speech purposes rather than music.

the problem i have at the moment is, the sound of bass coming out of the speakers is really crappy, the irony of this is that everything else sounds decent or good apart from the bass. during soundcheck, i usually turn off the speaker on my amp on stage, and the sound coming out of the FOH sounds really thin and i tried eq'ing it on the mixer before but whenever it comes out of the subs it only rumbles and doesn't reproduce the sound i get out of my amp. Our desk is a 24 channel soundcraft Two with eq. I have access to a compressor/gate if required. Could somebody help me out with this and ASAP?

Thanks.

[janek65]

Only thing i could imagine is that the subs might be designed to reproduce a more 'hi-fi'-ish kind of low-freq. I would try to seriously cut the bass guitar's lows (under say, 200 hz) and boost the mids around 250-400 hz a bit, see if that helps.
Apart from that, i'd say it's normal that the sound coming from the PA doesnt match the amp's sound.
Good luck,
Jan

[TL5]

How are you providing the feed for the FOH? Is it a DI feed straight from the bass? Are you sending a line feed from the amp? If an amp/line feed is pre or post EQ?

If I were to guess; I'd say you use a DI and FOH gets your bass signal straight from the DI. Most soundguys like it that way.

I play DI almost all of the time. I re-gained some control over my house tone (and IEM tone) by connecting my pedalboard to the line feed and skipping the amp altogether. I don't even set up an amp when I play DI with IEM's. Nobody hears it.
My PB has two Sansamps (bass driver and a GT2) going to an ART TubeMP last in the chain. The amp simulators work really well in this application IMHO.. PLUS our soundguys love it. No amp stage volume to muddy things up.

[pbd]

It sounds like your impedance isn't matched to the system. If you don't have a DI then you should get one. Better yet, playing to only a couple hundred your amp would sound better live. During practice set up the sound levels with the FOH guy. Leave headroom as you'll want to boost it a little once all the people come in. Smaller sound system speakers aren't capapable of handling multiple, dynamic sounds. If you can blend the instruments from their amps you'll have better luck getting the vocals to sound good with plenty of volume if they're the primary sound from the speakers.

Good luck!

[bishopthomas]

Do you know what kind of subs you have? Also, check your crossover points. pbd is right though, you'll probably get a better sound by just skipping the PA completely.

[bassman040]

thanks guys for the responses.

firstly, i'm feeding a signal from my eden nemesis which has an xlr out to the house, if i'm not wrong i think thats pre eq. Maybe i'll try hook up my sansamp pbddi and see how it sounds.

Apart from that, i'll go try eq things at the desk and check the crossover points.

Also, pbd and bishopthomas, could you elaborate more about skipping the PA? I don't really understand.

Regards.

[TL5]

bassman040 they are suggesting that you do not run a line to the PA at all and simply turn your amp up louder to fill the room.

PA setup aside for the moment, In order for their suggestion to work; the soundman has to be for it and offer assitance in getting the sound right. The players around you will have to also be on board and be able to adjust their monitoring envirnment around you. If they are used to playing direct/low stage volume to FOH - will it effect their monitoring if your rumbling the stage? Said another way, will they turn up? Same thing goes for the singers. If the monitors go up will the soundman continue to support this?

In many (most?) churches stage volume is a major concern (I can provide a link to a forum of church soundmen/media if requested). Lower stage volumes help to create better FOH mixes because the soundmen/FOH are not competing with reflections off the stage/monitors. I've been a fan of this method since skipping the amps and going DI back in the 80s. The idea is to treat a church auditorium just like a major venue, where FOH IS the sound everyone hears.

You mentioned the PA speakers appeared to be positioned more for voice than music, I presumed that was a center cluster flown over the top of the stage/podium. Is that right?
You also said that your sound was crappy, but everyone else sounded good - correct? In that case, IMHO the direction is to improve your tone to the PA. To do that, I'm suggesting the exact opposite direction of pbd and bishopthomas.
Dropping the amp entirely and using the Sansamp would be a great idea IMHO - with one proviso: you have adequate or better monitoring. With an IEM, I don't need an amp - I never hear it. With stage volume low for better FOH mixing, the audience never hears it. It's a waste of energy/time to set it up.

[MM-Stingray5]

WHat kind of subs are they? some subs dont have a lot of throw and you wont get a good bottom end sound. you may need new subs.

[bassman040]

TL5 you're right, the speakers are centre clustered which makes them for voice. At the moment, I don't think the sound guys would be very open to blending the sound from the amp with the FOH because the position of the bass amp is deep into the stage away from the congregation. So, for it to actually get to the congregation it'll have to go past me, the electric guitarist and at least 2 vocalists, which isn't very good cause it'll ruin everybody's monitor mixes and cause them to turn up.

For the IEM suggestion, it's an expensive upgrade and we've started to upgrade to them slowly, now most of the vocalists have them and the drummer has one too. But the problem now is, there are only 8 Aux outs from the desk, which are already all taken. But the thing is I'm pretty alright with the current monitor setting at the moment, maybe i'll try the IEMs soon. Anyways, maybe i'll try using my sansamp again. I stopped using it when i got my Lakland 55-02 because it already had a preamp and i didn't think it sounded so great by adding the sansamp preamp on top of it.

[bishopthomas]

I made the suggestion of using your rig to fill the room only because I assumed that they would sound better than the PA subs. I still don't know what you have to work with. Churches are known for going with whatever somebody tells them to get (I know, I worked for one for 5 years), and it's not always the best advice. I got stuck mixing a full band on a Bose center cluster system. The only thing that saved the low end was the Yorkville 18" sub that I bought under my tenure. Previously we were using the Bose sub and it sounded just like you described: like crap.

Without knowing what kind of subwoofer you're using and how it's setup I have to assume that it's not made for what you're trying to do. Then the only option for decent sound is using your rig for the room. You may have to reposition it, maybe even on the floor in front of the stage so that it's not firing into mics and musicians' ears. Then mix in a little to your foldback or IEM's, but keep it out of the house.

Again, I'm assuming that your house PA is not up to the task, which it may well be.

[niftydog]

Originally Posted by bassman040

...i tried eq'ing it on the mixer

Chances are the main FOH graphics are set up for voice and potentially locked away somewhere. It's also highly likely that they're set up poorly with too many frequencies pulled out of the mix in a amateurish attempt to get more gain before feedback.

The old smiley face eq setting could be at play here too!

From what you're saying, it sounds to me like the frequencies you want just aren't in the mix, and no amount of tweaking your channel on the mixer is gonna solve that. Also, when you yank a frequency out with a graphic it causes phase errors, and with bass being such a full range instrument, it really suffers. (Keys are in the same boat a lot of the time.)

Also, keep in mind that shaping your tone for your amp and cabinet is one thing, but that same tone sent to the PA probably sounds terrible in and of itself. Try tweaking your amps controls to suit the PA, as well as the mixer channel EQs and you might get some benefit.

[pbd]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

I made the suggestion of using your rig to fill the room only because I assumed that they would sound better than the PA subs. I still don't know what you have to work with. Churches are known for going with whatever somebody tells them to get....Without knowing what kind of subwoofer you're using and how it's setup I have to assume that it's not made for what you're trying to do. Then the only option for decent sound is using your rig for the room. You may have to reposition it, maybe even on the floor in front of the stage so that it's not firing into mics and musicians' ears. Then mix in a little to your foldback or IEM's, but keep it out of the house.

Again, I'm assuming that your house PA is not up to the task, which it may well be.

Yes!

Often churches have speakers not intended for dynamic sound. I've played in many churches (as sound op) and blended live amps with the PA. For such a small number of congregates using live amps and PA together gives you better sound. Not as much control but you can get a feel for that and get better at it. As far as not having enough Aux's on the board try trading out some of the items to the group outs. IE: lobby speakers, nursery speakers, etc. save the aux's for the more dynamic monitor needs.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by pbd

Yes!
As far as not having enough Aux's on the board try trading out some of the items to the group outs. IE: lobby speakers, nursery speakers, etc. save the aux's for the more dynamic monitor needs.

And use mono mixes. If you're using 8 channels for the vocalists then it sounds like they have stereo mixes. Although, we had 8 vocalists at my church, and I hated it (just not a fan of large vocal groups in contemporary settings).

[TL5]

Originally Posted by bassman040

At the moment, I don't think the sound guys would be very open to blending the sound from the amp with the FOH because the position of the bass amp is deep into the stage away from the congregation. So, for it to actually get to the congregation it'll have to go past me, the electric guitarist and at least 2 vocalists, which isn't very good cause it'll ruin everybody's monitor mixes..

That's pretty typical. Even if you were located front/center most church soundmen would rather not relinquish control of FOH to an onstage amp. Based on what you described, even if you did try using your amp alone, it would be detached from the rest of the mix - provided everyone else is going thru the FOH.

Looking back at your comments in post one - I don't think inadequate PA is your problem. Also, when I say 'adequate monitoring' it does NOT have to mean an IEM. A wedge, headphones - any means of hearing yourself can be utilized.

I still think your best bet is to work on ensuring you are sending a good usable tone to the mixer. Tweak the Sansamp signal for the FOH. You may have to show up a few minutes early and dial it in. IMHO, Blasting away from the stage is counter productive.
Not that your amp would sound bad - it would simply work against everything else that's going on.


Just my two cents coming in here:
My approach to FOH tone is probably different to most bassist. My philosophy is to make sure I'm sending a good/great tone to the mixer, and monitoring THAT tone either in my wedge or IEM. After that, FOH responsibility is with the soundman. In the FOH; Whether I'm too much this or that, or not enough this or that is at his/her discretion, it's not my concern. If I can hear what I need to hear, and I know that I'm sending the FOH a usable tone - I'm happy. IMHO - YMMV.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by TL5

That's pretty typical. Even if you were located front/center most church soundmen would rather not relinquish control of FOH to an onstage amp.

This is a small church of a couple hundred people, with a volunteer group as a "soundman." As a sound technician myself, I would typically agree with you on your "give it all to the sound guy" approach, but maybe not in this situation. The main problem a sound guy has with stage volume is that there is usually too much of it. When has a sound guy ever come up to you and asked you to turn up?

Originally Posted by TL5

Based on what you described, even if you did try using your amp alone, it would be detached from the rest of the mix - provided everyone else is going thru the FOH.

You think subwoofers are "attached" to the rest of the mix? Most (if not all) other sources are coming out of the mid-high cabinets, with only minimal signal being sent to the subs (hopefully). There's probably only bass, kick drum and maybe a little keys at times coming through the sub. (By the way, how does the kick sound through the subwoofers?) So I don't think anyone is going to notice that the bass sounds are coming from a separate source when it should be anyway. Ever play in a small club where only vocals were run through the PA? It sounds fine.

Originally Posted by TL5

Just my two cents coming in here:
My approach to FOH tone is probably different to most bassist. My philosophy is to make sure I'm sending a good/great tone to the mixer, and monitoring THAT tone either in my wedge or IEM. After that, FOH responsibility is with the soundman. In the FOH; Whether I'm too much this or that, or not enough this or that is at his/her discretion, it's not my concern. If I can hear what I need to hear, and I know that I'm sending the FOH a usable tone - I'm happy. IMHO - YMMV.

Wouldn't it be nice if all musicians had that same philosophy? I couldn't agree more, but I also think that you should let the better gear do the job. We still don't know what the system is like, even after all this. I'm actually getting a little tired of speculating, so until there is more information presented I'm going to let you guys have at this one all you want.

[TL5]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

The main problem a sound guy has with stage volume is that there is usually too much of it..

I agree. That's why I disagree with the turn up philopsophy. It's counter productive in so many ways. Maybe HIS bass tone improves but at what cost? There's little that can muck up a FOH mix quicker than a too loud bass amp. Then there's the monitors..

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

You think subwoofers are "attached" to the rest of the mix? Most (if not all) other sources are coming out of the mid-high cabinets, with only minimal signal being sent to the subs (hopefully). There's probably only bass, kick drum and maybe a little keys at times coming through the sub. (By the way, how does the kick sound through the subwoofers?)

We've been told the main cluster is overhead center stage, the subs are under the stage. The subs are by nature omni-directional. The PA will sound like everything comes from the center cluster position, regardless. If the bass is only coming thru the subs then it's either EQ'd or routed thru the mixer wrong (being sent to the subs only). This is the very point of the original post. There should be low end energy from the bass in the subs, BUT the transients, mids and uppers will be in the cluster - or should be.

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

So I don't think anyone is going to notice that the bass sounds are coming from a separate source...

Maybe, maybe not. If everything else is coming thru the PA front and center and, "the position of the bass amp is deep into the stage away from the congregation.." I tend to think it'd be noticable. Which brings us to;

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

We still don't know what the system is like, even after all this..

I agree with you on this point, but I am responding based on the information provided by the original post. bassman040 said the PA was 'decent' and gave some basic info about it. He said he was unhappy with HIS tone but that everyone else seemed to sound fine. I have no reason to say the PA is the lesser gear until bassman040 comes back and says, "You know what guys? The PA is the problem.." Then I'd recommend coming out of it and moving his amp into a better position for providing sound for the room. Then again, if this church is like many others, the aesthetic committee would have a fit at an ugly amp sitting in plain view on the stage.

IMHO, turning up is rarely the right move. If not for this exception (and you mentioned it); all the instruments are runnng for the house, and only vocals are in the PA, then I'd say it's almost never the right option.
Once everything goes to the PA (and as long as the PA can support it), the lower the stage volume the better. DI with IEM is perfect because there is ZERO stage volume. From there, it's compromise. I think working on a better direct to PA tone does less to 'upset the apple cart' at a church than does moving an amp to center stage and cranking it up.

COME ON!! Get with the program..




I added the photo because, my posts read like I'm being argumentative and hard headed. I'm actually pretty easy going and have a sense of humor about this.