Recording bass with a condensor mic?

[superhand]

I have been trying to think of different ways to record my bass with my new band.

Usually we use a dynamic (I don't know the brand) about 18" away from my amp. IMO, it kind of emphasizes the mids and highs much more than the lows.

I want to try using my AKG Perception 100 condensor instead, because on the test runs that I have done at home it sounds way better to me than with a dynamic. We record live, so I'm sure it will sound different in a band setting. It seems to capture the sound of my amp more realistically, and it seems to capture the low frequencies better.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

I like the way my bass sounds through my amp way better than recording direct, so I really want to find a way to mic it so it still sounds like my amp.

I am playing a MIM Fender Jazz through a SWR Workinman's 15 BTW.

[mjdaby]

Never hurts to try a new thing. From my personal experience, I've tried using a mic signal as well as a direct signal, blending the two during the mixing process. I found that I usually was most content with the DI signal, and that was through a radial tonebone into the console. However, your experience with a condenser may come out better than mine.
I used a shure KSM (quite a flat mic) and experimented with placing it around the cabinet and at different distances from the cabinet. What I noticed was that it captured the lows quite well, but that it sometimes had an unattractive "boom" that I couldn't get rid of. Of course, that was my previous bass, and I think my current MIA 75reissue would have handled it better. Whatever the case, I currently run it through a Reddi, and couldn't be more happy with the natural warm tone. That being said, experiment! No harm in trying it out.

[sonic assassin]

it will work. ive rarely gotten it to sound good, but it will work. IME its a little TOO accurate sounding. too uncolored. and cheap condensers are always really gross in the top end. normally really anemic on the bottom and mid shy.

also in a live setting, you're going to get a LOT more bleed from other instruments. especially at that distance from the amp. unless you've got a crazy big room.

i like the old school lack of detail of a high quality dynamic. condensers are too shiny and clean for my taste.

you can put the mic a lot closer to the speaker than 18". the closer you get, the more the mic will pick up low end. its called proximity effect. too close and it will get nasty and boomy. or you can record the DI as well, and run a low pass filter on it, then mix it in with your mic track to fill in the bottom end.

and if you're getting too much high end, move the mic off center.

but if it sounds good, go for it.

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by superhand

...Usually we use a dynamic...about 18" away from my amp...

That's pretty far away IMO/IME . . .

You ARE talking about the mic being about 18" away from the speaker's grill cloth, right?

[JimmyM]

never was a fan of ambient micing for myself, but i've heard some really good stuff others have done with ambient micing. mccartney did a lot of it in the beatles. but not with a dynamic mic. they're usually used more for close micing. for ambient micing i'd use a condenser and maybe use the dynamic up close on a single speaker.

anyway, no, there's nothing wrong with using a condenser for your bass cab at all. condensers can sound wonderful. experiment around. try different positions if time isn't an issue.

[sonic assassin]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

mccartney did a lot of it in the beatles.

early on, they werent allowed to put mics within feet of the sound source. thank jeebus for emerick breaking all the rules. otherwise ALL bass would sound that way (unless it was DI) and music as we know it would still be all mid-fi and airy.

[colcifer]

18" away?!? That's your problem. Get the dynamic as close as you can (is the grill removable?) and take advantage of the proximity effect.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

early on, they werent allowed to put mics within feet of the sound source. thank jeebus for emerick breaking all the rules. otherwise ALL bass would sound that way (unless it was DI) and music as we know it would still be all mid-fi and airy.

actually emerick came up with one of mccartney's favorite bass sounds, micing his amp with a condenser from about 6 feet away in a large room. johnk 10 recently posted a little snippet of the isolated bass track from with a little help from my friends recorded this way. by itself it sounds like a camera mic'ed youtube video, but in the track it sounds amazing.

[sonic assassin]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

actually emerick came up with one of mccartney's favorite bass sounds, micing his amp with a condenser from about 6 feet away in a large room. johnk 10 recently posted a little snippet of the isolated bass track from with a little help from my friends recorded this way. by itself it sounds like a camera mic'ed youtube video, but in the track it sounds amazing.

i was moreso talking about how he revolutionized mic technique (mostly with drums). i dont really have specific examples haha

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

...ambient micing...

Good one Jimmy . . . that's what I'd call it, too . . . jeez, miking the bass speaker from 18 inches away!


.

[superhand]

"Ambient micing" or whatever you want to call it (i.e. not shoving a mic directly in front of the source) can actually get some pretty nice results. Not specifically for bass guitar, I am speaking generally. Ever wondered how the drums on "When the Levee Breaks" by Led Zeppelin sound so huge? Well, it wasn't from placing mics inches away from the drums, that is for sure.

What we are trying to do is capture the sound of us playing together live, I personally feel that placing a mic millimeters from the speaker on my amp is not going to get me anywhere close to that sound.

[Mr. Pickles]

[quote=superhand;8946356
What we are trying to do is capture the sound of us playing together live, I personally feel that placing a mic millimeters from the speaker on my amp is not going to get me anywhere close to that sound.[/QUOTE]

Right, but a dynamic mic has nowhere near the sensitivity or low end extension of a condenser, generally speaking. Most dynamic mics are specifically designed for close work with little bleed. And if you're trying to mic the whole band with a single dynamic, then you're totally missing the point. Unless,of course, you're just trying to capture a reference.

So, my question is, what are you trying to capture with the single mic? Are you intending to record a live performance? Or, are you micing your bass amp? Or both? Your answer will determine how to proceed.

FWIW, I have used the Perception 200 (similar to the 100) for bass with excellent results. I was about an inch off the grill, slightly off axis and with the capsule midway between the cap and edge of the cone. The amp was a Bassman 150 with a 12" Eminence driver.

Regardless, you could spend hours on mic placement and never ceased to be amazed at the minute details each position affords.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by superhand

What we are trying to do is capture the sound of us playing together live, I personally feel that placing a mic millimeters from the speaker on my amp is not going to get me anywhere close to that sound.

based on what? nothing could be farther from the truth. many methods have been used to record bass amps and most of them work very well.

[superhand]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pickles

So, my question is, what are you trying to capture with the single mic? Are you intending to record a live performance? Or, are you micing your bass amp? Or both? Your answer will determine how to proceed.

I am asking about how to mic just my bass amp. Everything else sounds pretty decent, but the bass just doesn't sound right to me.

[Charling]

Originally Posted by superhand

"Ambient micing" or whatever you want to call it (i.e. not shoving a mic directly in front of the source) can actually get some pretty nice results. Not specifically for bass guitar, I am speaking generally. Ever wondered how the drums on "When the Levee Breaks" by Led Zeppelin sound so huge? Well, it wasn't from placing mics inches away from the drums, that is for sure.

What we are trying to do is capture the sound of us playing together live, I personally feel that placing a mic millimeters from the speaker on my amp is not going to get me anywhere close to that sound.

Well of course, but thats drums! Its standard practice these days in big studios to have at least 5 ambient mics on drums, a near pair, a far pair and a mono room. I'll often add a crush mic and a stereo pair or mono mic in a weird place like the corridor as well. Also a single or pair of floor mics is often used to get some crazy low end.

None of this applies to bass, its not comparable techniques wise. The bass sound you hear on pretty much every recording you own is a close mic on a cab and a DI, or one or the other. Recording 18" off the grill is going to be very hard to work with if you are recording the band all in the same room, it will get way too much of everything and you need to be able to manipulate the bass quite cleanly (ie, as little spill as possible) to get a solid low end in your track.

Experiment with positions, sounds and different mics, add a DI maybe. The perception will probably do the job, I'm not blown away by them as a mic but for demo's etc it should do the job fine on bass. To be honest, recording a bass is one of the simplest tasks in a studio. Getting a good low end in the mix overall without messy-ness, thats a bit harder and incorperates a huge amount of learning and techniques!

But my main point is, 18" is too far, its absolutely the best place to start with close micing your cab, if you are not getting the sounds you want then look at your sound, your mic choice, placement and then your gear (preamps etc).

[JimmyM]

i don't know if i totally agree with the 18 inch away thing not being good. i've done it when recording cabs for comparison and you can get a good sound that way, but i always prefer close micing. i don't like the room noise, i don't like the volume levels having to be loud enough to cause rattles in the room, etc. but you definitely can get good tones from ambient micing if you have a big enough room and nobody else playing. and a good condenser.

[sonic assassin]

Originally Posted by superhand

"Ambient micing" or whatever you want to call it (i.e. not shoving a mic directly in front of the source) can actually get some pretty nice results. Not specifically for bass guitar, I am speaking generally. Ever wondered how the drums on "When the Levee Breaks" by Led Zeppelin sound so huge? Well, it wasn't from placing mics inches away from the drums, that is for sure.

What we are trying to do is capture the sound of us playing together live, I personally feel that placing a mic millimeters from the speaker on my amp is not going to get me anywhere close to that sound.

you act as if close micing is a terrible thing. most of the instruments you've heard since the 70's were close miced. most of the bass was likely DI, which is as close as you can get.

drums have nothing to do with it. they are sound flying in all directions from multiple sources.

if you want the exact feel of you guys playing live, get a binaural head and put it in the middle of the room. it hears what you hear, and it sounds like crud, i promise. when you play live, they close mic you. sounds fine, doesnt it?

the difference between a millimeter and 3 inches is a world away in audio. if it sounds too crushed, back it up a tad. but a foot and a half, thats as much drum bleed as it is bass.

either way, your dynamic mic might be lo-fi and terrible, and inherently bad for this application. try your condenser. but also try bringing it in close. most live recordings are close miced for isolation. the little bit of bleed makes it live. if its all bleed, then you get a tin can punk recording.

[Emibass]

I like to stick a dynamic mic close, about 10cm from the grill and a condenser at about 2m. This way I can do a blend between the close mic, the ambient and the D.I. If I had to mic the cab with inly one mic I would start to move arround with the mic to get the tone I want. I always look for the mids out of a cab more than the lows b/c the lows I can get pretty well from the D.I. I want the cab to sound punchy in the mids with all the harmonic destortion, compression of the driver, the room...etc.

[otis_thick]

I do a lot of "live" to air broadcasting of classical and electric blues have found that micing with a condenser about 2 to 3' from the middle of the face of the cabinet renders a very good rep of the "AMP's" sound I a large diaphram type with a cardioid setting and a 10db pad flat no roll off. I face the capsule a little cantered away from the next instrument usually drums

This is a clip one of the shows: Remember the audio is is compressed for the avi. Also this was really a sound check song. For a few seconds you will hear the bass and guitar change during the solo. The mics you see on the drums are house and not feeding this mix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paDjVOwharo

Im using all condenser mics on the instruments 2 small diaphram types for stage coverage focused on the drums overhead with a -10db pad spead about 10' way to each side and 10' high aimed at drums and 1 large diaphram low on the floor slightly agled up towards the toms about 4' in front of bass drum. Each amp has a large diaphram about 2 1/2 ' from center face of amp cantered slightly away from the drums for both the bass and guitar amps The bass amp is a fender port-a-flex. I am using ARTmic slitters for the vocal. I have 2 condensers low in front of the stage for audience and stage All running through 12x4 snake to a 10 channel analog board w/FX postion in the bassment below the stage I have a one side of an Aphex Easy rider ion the bass and the other side on the bass drum. Analog out to ISDN interface back to station 4miles away.

The mics and mixer all tallied for around $1,100.00 inc tax. That was all the budget I had to put together a "live" remote package. We are PBS/NPR. I have since picked up a few more "expensive" mics but comparing them side by side there are differences but not as much as some wopuld have you believe. I have recorded international violin and pianist with orchestra with ABC micing and most, believe or not choose either the cheepest or a combo of the cheepest plus an expensive one, One pianist brought his own $4,000.00 matched pair and even placed them and still chose the least expensive! good luck

[otis_thick]

Listen to the clip on 360 for some reason the 480 is in mono
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paDjVOwharo