Recording Double Bass Inquiries (microphone choice)

[jacofox]

Hey,
for an assignment I need to allocate and position microphones for a full jazz band. I've completed allocating what microphones I see fit for guitar, drums, vox, brass and keys but am having trouble on the double bass.

We need to assume there is no pickup built into the bass (so no DI). I want to place a mic on the neck for finger noise and another near the body for the lower fundamental frequencies.

The microphones I have available are;
- a Neumann TLM 170
- AKG C414
- Sennheiser MD421
- 2x Rode NT1
- Rode NT2

any ideas...i'm totally lost here, especially when it comes to avoiding phase cancellation...

Thanks

[Hellbastard]

IME Rode mics are great for acoustic instruments. So I would go with those since they are the only pair you have.
That said take a look to this video. Steve Bailey explains how he records Double Bass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIwEqVnDzck

[kalle74]

I would go with the Neumann at body (bridge-height, slightly to either side depending how it sounds), and 414 (super-cardioid pattern) for the neck. BTW, with 2 mics, you can´t escape phase problems. You just have to go with what sounds good.

Neither of the Rodes you listed are particularly bass-friendly, IMHO.

[korybaugus]

I've had good results with the Royer 121 and AEA R84...

[gbarchus]

AKG C414!

[DeadPoet]

Mic does not matter that much, position does. upright has a lot of peaks and nulls. It is my experience that there is not one uber-right place to put your microphone but I have found wrapping a microphone in foam and putting it in the bridge has the most chance of succes (and is very room acoustics independent and handles spill really well).

I've done quiet some testing to finding the right microphone with my instrument - an AT4050 did it for me so I'd guess the TLM or 414 would do the same for you.



Herwig

[Bass Kebap]

+1 on the AKG C414.
I've located this about 30 cm away from the end of the fingerboard and placed an AKG D112 a few cm's away from the lower part of the F-hole to capture more low end. The result was miraculous.

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by kalle74

...with 2 mics, you can´t escape phase problems...

You've sure got THAT right . . . any time 2 . . . or more . . . mics are "hearing" the same instrument(s), there's a strong possibility of "phase problems" . . . an engineer NEEDS to "check phase" anytime there's more than 1 microphone being used . . .

Originally Posted by kalle74

...with 2 mics, you can´t escape phase problems. You just have to go with what sounds good...

or at least what sounds the best of all the options, after moving the mic stands and flipping the polarity (phase, sic) switch(es) . . . . . .

[sonic assassin]

id find a good sound with the 421 first. i really dont know where the hot points are.. its a big freakin' instrument.

then in get a good room sound with an LDC. it IS an acoustic instrument.

personally id leave the rode's out of it. very harsh IME. ive never used a tlm170, but the not super bright character of the 414 could work out fairly well.

in your situation, you might benefit from finding one of those little piezo pickups you can put in the bridge. fairly certain you can make them for cheap.

regarding phase cancellation, if this is being recorded into a DAW, you can always phase align later. zoom WAY in on both clips and line them up the best you can. then push them to either side until you hear the most bass. thats the best you can do.

[Big B.]

Go check this on the DB side. There are countless discussions on microphones and placement.

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

...but the not super bright character of the 414 could work out fairly well...

oh no, here we go again . . . . . .

where did you get the idea that a 414 is "not super bright"???

The 414 (and it's predecessor, the C-12) has got to be the brightest large diaphram condenser microphone EVER . . .

[sonic assassin]

Originally Posted by deaf pea

oh no, here we go again . . . . . .

where did you get the idea that a 414 is "not super bright"???

The 414 (and it's predecessor, the C-12) has got to be the brightest large diaphram condenser microphone EVER . . .

it certainly didnt take my head off when i put one in front of a guitar amp, much like every other condenser ive ever used did. and ive often heard it described as "dull" compared to most LDC's.

[Charling]

I've always found 414's very bright myself, and I love em even though I'm normally averse to bright mics! They are not as bright as my beyer mc740 however, and the brightness is in a different spot to 87's and there like. Guitars seem to live a little below the 414's push (it sounds like to me anyway, haven't checked the specs!) so they'll be emphasiving the white sizzley area of guiar cabs, not the screaming ear ripping area just above a 57's range. So I don't think thats the best source to judge their brightness... Love em on guitar cabs, though and I've always found 414's a perfectly useable brightness, as opposed to a lot of cheap (and some very expensive!) LDC's out there.

TLM170's are great mics, very neutral sounding. For the amount they cost they are not useful enough on enough stuff for me to reccommend buying one (they are around £2300 new) BUT if you have a big mic locker they excel on guitar cabs and anything where you don't want to hype the highs, basically.

It would be good on bowed or plucked double bass as the closer mic, with something a bit brighter like the 414 a bit further back (providing your room is good, and remember the 3:1 rule!). If your room is not so good I'd start to search around for for a second good close mic spot.

There are loads of good combo's of close mics, experimentation is the key but try just below where the strings are plucked, and move the mic left to right on that axis from shoulder, to fingerboard back to shoulder etc. You'll hear a huge number of useable tones just doing that! You'll soon find one you like.

EDIT - its worth a try, but I wouldn't go with a 421, it wouldn't get some of the subtleties of the instrument so well, and they are really bright. Again in a useable way but I can hear it enhancing squeeks and finger noise/clicks quite a bit and like a lot of dynamics they do not fair too well when placed far enough back to avoid this. Love em, though, one of my favourite mics!

[DeadPoet]

A small test I did a while back:
https://www.humyo.com/FQVWFWC/studio...?a=z7-P0fHM91Y

All different microphones in the same place (foam in bridge).
[the media player on that site is awful but you can download the files one by one to listen in WAV quality]

Contenders: Shure SM-57 omni (taped around head), Audio Technica 4050 (omni, fig8 and cardio), ElectroVoice RE-20, Behringer ECM800, Shure SM-7b, Peluso P28, Neumann KM-184, Sennheiser MD-421, BeyerDynamic M201 and M160, Rode NT-1 and AKG C-391.



Herwig

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by Charling

...remember the 3:1 rule...experimentation is the key...

the important things . . . . . . in ALL recording work . . .