3rd finger in lower positions

[Conky]

i too always advocate using three fingers in any sort of "technical" situations, if you know what I mean. It is always important to "caress" the sound, and the mistress.

Frankly, I think one should always use the two fingers up top, one finger below method, but that might just be my "training."

[Andrew McGregor]

Originally Posted by Les Fret

But you also can pivot when using 134....
Pivoting is not restricted to 124.

Maybe you can. I can't reach the semitone 3-4 until quite high up the neck and my hand is already rotating in the transition positions, so for me it's basically pointless.

[Les Fret]

But you can use pivoting with 134 when playing in the lower positions. I Don't use it all the time though. Only sparingly and in fast passages. But if you can pivot with 124 you can just as well use it with 134.
Never really understood why Rabbath did stay with the 124 fingering and didn't apply 134 to his playing.

[ubassman]

Demonstration of muscle/tendon limits of the third finger.

1/. Sit down and place left hand flat on a table (don't do this standing) - it will naturally point a bit off to the right.
2/. Suspend the right hand above the left hand with a gap of 2 inches clear air between hands. The right hand will naturally point to the left.

3/. Without shifting the hands, raise the index finger of the left hand to tap the underside (palm) of the right hand - pretty easy
4/. Put the index finger back down and repeat with the pinkie finger - pretty easy
5/. Put the index finger back down and repeat with the middle finger - pretty easy

6/. Now try it with just the 3rd ring finger ( if thats too easy, try separating the hands a bit).!!

Not passing judgement here as to whether the 3rd should or shouldn't be used, just making the point that anatomically the 3rd doesn't have the same musculature as its neighbours.

If anyone has got a copy of The School of Agility by Eugene Levinson there is a good technical suggestion of use of the 1-3,4 finger in the half and first positions as a way of shifting between positions ... and the 3rd is used throughout the book throughout the fingerboard.

[ubassman]

Eugene Levinson is Principal Bassist in the New York Philharmonic and Chairman of the Bass Department at the Julliard School.

'' Fingering is crucial to proper playing. Violinists and cellists always use each of the four strings on their instruments. Bass players, even when necessary, seldom do. Instead of crossing strings in fast passages, there was an inclination to employ extra shifts and jumps. This, in my opinion, may inhibit performing efficiency.''

In his School for Agility ...the 3rd finger features a lot with suggestions for:-

* A variety of fingerings that allow each individual bassist to find those suitable to his/her level and style of playing.
*Fingerings that are appropriate to specific playing situations.
*Fingerings that facilitate the shaping of musical phrases by creating smoother transitions from one position or string to another.
*Techniques to help produce a clean and clear low frequency sound.

Or alternatively don't use the 3rd finger and musically 'join the dots' with a 1, 2, 4 hand !!

[zon6c-f]

I was taught Simandl Method... nearly ruined me for Electric Playing.

Maybe for Symphonic playing and 7/8 basses it works better, but for Jazz, etc and especially on a 3/4 bass with excellent action..easliy played using [electric] 4-fingered method.

My opinion and experience only.

[Les Fret]

Originally Posted by ubassman

6/. Now try it with the 3rd ring finger ( if thats easy too try separating the hands a bit).!!

Not passing judgement here as to whether the 3rd should or shouldn't be used, just making the point that anatomically the 3rd doesn't have the same musculature as its neighbours.

Tell that to guitar violin and cello players. They use 3rd finger all the time. Not that I want to compare these instruments to double bass but saying the 3rd finger is a less efficient finger is not true.

[ubassman]

I never said it was less efficient ( your words Les, not mine !!)

... the 3rd finger does have different musculature and a smaller range of movement and was the purpose of the demonstration. All that it really means is that the 3rd arrives at the end of its limits faster than the others particularly in 'big stretch' positions. I am wary how I use my 3rd finger in half and first positions with that knowledge.

I trained as a classical guitarist, and then a double bassist and I use 3rd finger in both. I completely agree that it moves just as fast and efficiently as the others ...as do my thumbs when I play the piano ( which also move differently to the other fingers) !

[gerry grable]

Originally Posted by Les Fret

Tell that to guitar violin and cello players. They use 3rd finger all the time. Not that I want to compare these instruments to double bass but saying the 3rd finger is a less efficient finger is not true.

I have big hands, and many years ago I tried to go to the four-finger method. I think they called it the Italian method ? I gave it a good try, but finally went back to Simandl. I simply could not get the third finger to hit the notes in tune. Unless I concentrated hard, it always played flat. It was never comfortable. One, two and four were fine. I'm not passing judgment on the method. It is logical as hell. Just not for me. Perhaps the years of Simandl changed the configuration of my ring finger?

[neilG]

Originally Posted by Les Fret

Tell that to guitar violin and cello players. They use 3rd finger all the time. Not that I want to compare these instruments to double bass but saying the 3rd finger is a less efficient finger is not true.

Agreed. Clearly the key is to train the third finger early on with the other three, something not traditionally done with bassists.

[chicagodoubler]

One significant point- We've only had steel strings and low action for half a century or so. The argument re: tendon damage is very true for gut with high action, but not relevant for modern setups any more so than for the other fingers. Simandl couples the 3rd and 4th finger together out of necessity, not out of pedantry. Note that it may be argued that this is done for the aid of the pinky, not due to the weakness of the ring.

Please note also that for context, Dragonetti was praised for using *more than one finger* on his left hand. We've come a long way.

I'm not trying to attack anyone's pedagogy; we all should stick with what our teachers taught us for many years before deviating. FWIW, I use the 3rd finger all over the neck but would not teach a student to do so until they had a sound grasp of "traditional" pedagogy.

[ubassman]

Understanding how much we can move our digits is useful background information especially when it comes to consciously avoiding overstretching.

Just to illustrate that not all fingers are equal in their range of movement and the 3rd has the least range, form a 'dome' shape with the hands by joining just the finger tips. Keeping the fingers naturally curved, make sure that the the fingers are not tight together as they would be for playing a cello or guitar , but are separated as they would be in the half position . Make a nice dome shape.

So , with the left thumb tip touching right thumb tip, left index tip touching right , etc. start with the index fingers. Separate them and point the fingers vertically - note how much space there is between the fingers ( several inches). Go back to forming the dome

Now the pinkie , repeat just separating the pinkie fingers as far as they will go ( I get the most separation between the pinkies - slightly more than I can achieve with the index). Reform the dome shape.

Now separate out the middle fingers ( still good but not as quite as much range of movement as the index and pinkie ).

Now the 3rd or ring finger.

If you repeat the exercise just with the 3rd finger but with the fingers close together ( where you would play in the thumb position ...or the cello, guitar etc) the 3rd fingers separate a little more. Go backwards and forwards with wide fingers and close fingers just to compare the 3rd finger. Its fine playing a cello or guitar as the fingers are closer together and not at the edges of the range of movement . With DB we have to be careful - i am cautious about using the 3rd finger on the E and A string in low positions as the fingers are fully stretched.

Everybody's hands are different. At the end of the day we all want to be better players ...but also to avoid injury.

[zon6c-f]

"Dome Effect".. I like it as a tangible explanation.

Anyone know an excercises or how to strengthen ring finger without causing damge?

[MostlyBass]

Check out Mark Morton's thoughts... His system is very logical and works well.. :
Simandl-Plus®

[eerbrev]

INCOMING: WALL OF TEXT. MAN YOUR BATTLESTATIONS.

Originally Posted by ubassman

Understanding how much we can move our digits is useful background information especially when it comes to consciously avoiding overstretching...
[...]
...Everybody's hands are different. At the end of the day we all want to be better players ...but also to avoid injury.

Thanks for your eloquently written thoughts on this. You've brought up some interesting points and things to think about. I will clarify for those who are about to read this wall of text that most of what I'm talking about deals specifically with the use of 3rd finger in its "minor third handframe" permutation, and not in its use as a semitone after 1 (which I have also mentioned that I use, and use often).

If I might kindly rebut you a little bit though, I believe you're focusing on a part of the problem;flexibility in the 3rd finger (a very important, part, don't get me wrong), without looking at the entire issue, which also involves the strength of the 3rd finger as well as it independence. Indeed, I feel that independence of the third finger from the fourth is the most pivotal and important part of the use of third finger in bass technique. One thing your two examples have both had in common is to show the limitation of independent movement of the third finger. The problem with both examples is that they focus on the extension of the fingers, whereas the motion we should be focusing on is the flexion (the movement of bringing your fingers into a fist is that of flexion). In the movement of flexion our third finger has about as much movement as any of the other fingers, or at least more than enough for our purposes.

Moving from this we need to focus on the strength of the third finger and its independence from the second and fourth fingers, most especially the fourth finger, which if my spotty knowledge of anatomy isn't failing me shares a tendon or two in common with the third finger. This brings up two questions: One, how strong do we need our finger to be to allow it to be a viable musical tool, and how much independent movement do we need our third finger for it to be a viable musical tool?

On the question of strength, i think it varies heavily by school. I am a seated player, and I was taught by my teacher to use the natural weight of my arm muscles (and shoulder muscles, and so on), and the rotation of my arm to both depress the string and to move from note to note. As a result, I don't really need a whole lot of strength in my individual fingers, as the larger muscles are doing the work for me. Other players who use a more square hand frame and think of their fingers like a typewriter mechanism will need much more strength in their individual fingers to allow for the extension needed to remove their fingers from the string.

On the question of independence: this, as I mentioned earlier, is the kicker for me. Do we need to build in more independence than the third finger has, or will it come with time, or can we just use our hand as-is without difficulty? I have no real answers for this, and i think this is, again, where technique and "schools" of playing will differ. I personally don't think we need to train and strain our fingers to make a semitone between 3 and 4 viable, but others will 100% disagree.

Again, I thank you for your insight and your intelligence in this thread. I think you and many other people have done a lot to keep this discussion very relevant as well a well-mannered. Both of these qualities in discussion are really important to keeping discussion on the internet from devolving into a pissing contest where nothing gets accomplished.

regards,

eerbrev

[ubassman]

Agreed. My observations were really related to the thread topic of playing in the lower positions where the fingers are naturally more extended ( especially on the E ). But you are right, to move the fingers we need to extend and flex ...the basis of all movement. The further points you make take the debate into an interesting area - I sense this could be a 'pivot'-al moment !

[Les Fret]

My opinion is that if it sounds good and you don't hurt yourself it doesn't really matter what finger you use. This discussion is only interesting for double bass players. Other people who don't play bass don't care and just listen to the music.

And also your left hand fingering has to fit with your bowing and interpretation. It's all connected. So it is hard discussing fingering without a musical context. In my lessons my teacher only spends about 5% of the time on left hand fingerings. Rest is bowing technique, tone production and musical interpretation.

Doesn't mean we can't have fun discussing it though

[David Potts]

It has always intrigued me that string players, most of us strongly right-handed, are required to make such dextrous movements with our weaker hand so that the right hand can be used expressively.

My interpretation of good LH set up is that the fingers are arched for strength and then raised and lowered in that shape by flapping from the big knuckles. The degree of rise and fall is only sufficient to articulate clearly. The muscles that cause the rise and fall are in the forearm, not in the fingers. therefore it is important for efficiency that the hand lines up with the forearm through a flat wrist. Playing on the E string causes some pronation and loss of strength and mobility though (which I try to minimize).

I have for most of my career used 12 3 4 fingering all over the bass neck, combining it with a slight rolling/stretching movement in lower positions. My hand is not overly big but my palm is square and my pinkie is long. There are times when 1 2 4 fingering is definitely better and I will contract.

There have also been times when I thought that I should have stuck to 1 2 4 for greater relaxation and for playing A flat in tune on the E string (my most suspect note).

I have been enjoying the lots of good debate above. Thank you guys.

DP

[emilio g]

At the end of the day, we all make up our own technique. Part of studying is we "try on" Simandl or Levinson or Rabbath, or whoever, but most of us take the bits we like, leave bits we don't, and maybe add some of our own discoveries.

So check out the people who use the third finger downstairs (maybe have been mentioned already), but also play around and see what you can get away with.