4th finger in thumb position?

[damonsmith]

I was reading that old Double Bassist article about Silvio Dalla Torre ( one of those "four finger guys") and he was talking about using all all four fingers + thumb in thumb position.
I tried a bit tonight and it does not seem to be a bad Idea for some things.
Does anyone else use it?

I am always skpetical about these great classical soloists (and he is great I have his cd) and their "new" fingerings, mainly because they are so good they could probably play the notes with their nose so just because they do it does not always mean it is practical for every day use by every day bassists.
Still I like to try everything...

[Johnny L]

I do it a little around the first octave. I got to see him play last year and he was fantastic!

Even better, we were all warming up to play and Silvio Dalla Torre is there with us. I'm just playing a G scale real slow, and then I hear him playing off the notes I'm bowing while doing his own warmup on his basetto. It was a very cool experience.

Recently, I've become a 4-finger convert and I'm lovin' it...even in half position.

[Snakewood]

It's quite taboo amongst most traditionally trained ORCHESTRAL bassists. I had to use a 4th finger as an extension in thumb position for a very fast passage in Britten's "The Rape of Lucretia"...no one seemed to notice.

[Stan Haskins]

Umm, Damon - we've watched your videos - do you reallythink the term "everyday bassist" can apply to you ?

I've always been pretty skeptical about non-traditional fingerings, but you certainly should give everything a try, anyway.

It seems to me (I've never seen, played, or heard the Britten piece Snakewood mentioned) that there may be a few specific situations where that fourth finger could come in handy. ONe thing I could picture would be "slurring" (or hammering) a major third or perfect fourth between the thu mb and fourth finger (I'm really thinking about using the thumb beneath the harmonic here)

(I can't wait to get home and try it now )

Or, maybe, a five-note run where you con't have time to shift?

I'm glad you brought this up . . .

[andrewc4000]

I do know Dennis Trembly uses 4th finger in the double stops for the Koussevitzky concerto. Then again, he has a pretty small hand

[Dr Rod]

4th finger in thumb position can be of great help, especially in the transition area.

Somehow the old methods had this rule that you can't use the 4th finger in thumb position, or use thumb in the lower positions. I think this is limiting not only for soloists but also for orchestral musicians, unless you have incredible talent.

[sibass89]

This is a popular technique for bassists with small hands. I know more than a couple of people who use this while playing the Tubin Concerto. I haven't really seen it used in orchestra but I don't really pay attention to everybody's fingerings in orchestra, but it is definitely useful if you have a small. If you have a big hand like me, it doesn't make much of a difference.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Stan Haskins

do you reallythink the term "everyday bassist" can apply to you ?

Well compared to a guy like that!
I have been drilling D major scale in thumb position this morning using the fourth finger for the D hamonic at the end. It seems comfortable and sensible there, I am going to try losing the hamonic and just fingering D soon.

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

I have been drilling D major scale in thumb position this morning using the fourth finger for the D hamonic at the end. It seems comfortable and sensible there, I am going to try losing the hamonic and just fingering D soon.

Neat that makes me think of playing the g on the d string and thumb on the A of the g string...and then using the pinky to get to the 9th. That would be cool.

[Snakewood]

Originally Posted by Stan Haskins

Umm, Damon - we've watched your videos - do you reallythink the term "everyday bassist" can apply to you ?

I've always been pretty skeptical about non-traditional fingerings, but you certainly should give everything a try, anyway.

It seems to me (I've never seen, played, or heard the Britten piece Snakewood mentioned) that there may be a few specific situations where that fourth finger could come in handy. ONe thing I could picture would be "slurring" (or hammering) a major third or perfect fourth between the thu mb and fourth finger (I'm really thinking about using the thumb beneath the harmonic here)

(I can't wait to get home and try it now )

Or, maybe, a five-note run where you con't have time to shift?

I'm glad you brought this up . . .

The Britten is a chamber opera for 13 instrumentalists and singers. It's really difficult.

[mcnaire2004]

I never really heard of 4rth finger in thumb position. And frankly it is a little unreasonable. I understand reaching a quick harmonic ever now and then but other than that you can't do much. The only way it would work is if you changed the way you hold the bass and the angle your and touches the fingerboard. You would look verry strange trying to play that way.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by mcnaire2004

I never really heard of 4rth finger in thumb position. And frankly it is a little unreasonable. I understand reaching a quick harmonic ever now and then but other than that you can't do much. The only way it would work is if you changed the way you hold the bass and the angle your and touches the fingerboard. You would look verry strange trying to play that way.

- I have been trying it for a day it is not too uncomfortable. I Lay the neck on my shoulder and center my hand over all four strings instead of the G in general anyway. It seems like a useful. My attitude with this stuff is learn before I throw it away, if I decide it won't work.

[tappingtrance]

I got to tell you I was skeptical about this and then tried it yesterday. Putting your thumb on the G harmonic [12th fret so to speak] and having your index finger on the A then fingers 2,3,4 on the Bb, B C [simile for the D and A strings] actually provides some solutions and it does not seem to require 'a new angle or position' of your left arm or hand - not sure I would migrate to it totally due to speed/agility issues, but I woudl use it as I do thumb position on the D note onthe G string -7th fret]

[TomGale]

1. Don't restrict yourself to old limits that were meant for a bass that was set up in 1930's or so.

2. If it works, use it!

Tom Gale

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by TomGale

1. Don't restrict yourself to old limits that were meant for a bass that was set up in 1930's or so.

According to Silvio Dalla Torre (my understanding, that is), 4 finger technique in general (in or out of thumb position) was used by Dragonetti et al as standard technique.

[BMason]

I've never really been a big fan of the practice. Since I have larger hands I could be wrong about this, but I find it quite uncomfortable to turn the hand at an extreme angle in order to fit the fourth finger in. Quite frankly, I think that stopping at the third finger facilitates just about all of the rep. and does so without straining the wrist.

[TomGale]

[quote=Johnny .... was used by Dragonetti et al as standard technique.[/QUOTE]

It was used by more than a few of excellent bassists way back but, under the old set up, it took an exceptional left hand to use it considering the thick gut strings and high action to accommodate those same strings. Today, anybody can incorporate it into their basic technique package - some more expanded than others. I think the great bassist you quote still recommends my book for the use of the open hand (4 finger) technique.
Tom Gale

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by TomGale

It was used by more than a few of excellent bassists way back but, under the old set up, it took an exceptional left hand to use it considering the thick gut strings and high action to accommodate those same strings. Today, anybody can incorporate it into their basic technique package - some more expanded than others. I think the great bassist you quote still recommends my book for the use of the open hand (4 finger) technique.
Tom Gale

That's right he does recommend your book!
http://www.silviodallatorre.com/subr...ontent=publish

[damonsmith]

I have been using it for the D harmonic and it works great there. You kind of pivot up from C# and it is quicker and more solid than a shift. I have been working on that Rabbath piece "Prades" and it seems to work well there.
I find that if I am playing a composition I can be freer with the fingerings try a lot more options. It is not always the case for improvisation. I definately prefer solid positions when I don't know what is comming.
Dalla Torre says holding your hand in position is a waste of energy, and for pieces you have been playing for decades I might agree, but for improvisation, especially free improvisation it can be energy well spent.

Still, after practicing some many different options sometimes they show up in the improvisations.

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

Dalla Torre says holding your hand in position is a waste of energy, and for pieces you have been playing for decades I might agree, but for improvisation, especially free improvisation it can be energy well spent.

In principle, I agree. I think it's not very helpful either, in the end, to demand our personal habits be eliminated or scorned because they don't fit somehow or get acknowledged by a particular method of playing.

But to me, Silvio Dalla Torre is combining the best of Rabbath's pivoting and crab-technique ideas with 4-finger technique...which I think is a very exciting proposition even for thumb position.

Of course, as Tom Gale offers, not all bass setups and string tensions accomodate such techniques equally...and the player himself is an important consideration where 4-finger technique is concerned...but the same can be said of any existing or imagined playing technique.

It all makes a very strong case for remaining open-minded and willing to explore all ideas, no matter how unusual they might appear in context of a particular technique (or even a particular habit).

On the other hand, if what you do works for you to your satisfaction then nobody has much of a case in demanding you do otherwise either!