Any advice? See video of 8 year old bassist...

bassist6 · #1 07-26-2008, 11:39 PM

Hello,

My son is 8 and has been playing double bass for two years. I have attached a video. Neither my husband nor I play music, unfortunately, so his only help comes from his oncer per week lesson with a wonderful local bassist. He is currently practicing this Montanari Etude, a Bach Cello Suite, Beethoven's 5th Symphony, a Marcello Sonata, and Simandl. He is also playing in a local youth orchestra, and plays on a 1/8 size bass (although he will probably move up to a 1/4 or 1/2 within a few months). My son also plays the piano at a California Certificate of Merit level 5.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x64F16apbCY

Our challenge right now is keeping him motivated, so any advice on music camps, local orchestras, competitions (don't know if he's good enough for those yet!), etc. is greatly appreciated! We would also love to connect with any other young players in our area. We live in San Diego. Thank you!

thebassgirl · #2 07-28-2008, 07:40 PM

Interlochen Arts Camp, he can go for either 3 or 6 weeks and he would absolutely love it. Also, give him a metronome and tell him to practice SLOWLY.

jgbass · #3 07-28-2008, 11:42 PM

San Diego has the wonderful San Diego Youth Symphony. Is that the orchestra he is in?

Depending on what area of San Diego you live in, I would say you might gather some more information from contacting some of the colleges, such as Grossmont College in East County, which has a fine orchestra I used to play in. Randall Tweed is the Conductor. He might be able to give you some ideas. Branden Mureson also teaches at Grossmont. He really really knows the San Diego string community very well, teaches as several schools around the county, also has a community orchestra for adults in Rancho Bernardo. He would be really aware of any opportunities for your son because he is all over doing many teaching activities. You could leave a message for him at the Music Department at Grossmont College. The office person there is very nice and she might give you his direct number or email as well. Here's the number of the Music Dept: (619) 644-7254. I think the office is open most of the summer.

There is also a youth string program at the College Avenue Baptist Church in the College area. I went to one of their peformances, and there were all these children playing various string instruments in an orchestra. They sounded good.

Hope that is a start. I really enjoyed the video.

bassist6 · #4 07-29-2008, 12:12 AM

Thank you for your messages! Yes, I know he needs to slow down and use a metronome. That is an issue for him on the piano, too! He is currently playing in the training orchestra of the San Diego Young Artists Symphony, which is conducted by a member of the San Diego Symphony. My son is enjoying the repertoire (they play some jazz and contemporary pieces as well as classical, and even included a piece (Saint-Saens' L'Elefant) with a bass solo in their last concert, however, I will definitely check out the resources you have mentioned. Thank you!

Eli_Upright12 · #5 07-29-2008, 08:23 AM

I would suggest that he slow down his progress and work on the basics a little while longer, he's obviously very talented, but I think it would be a huge value to play some less technical repertoire. What he is playing right now is very difficult and Beethoven's 5th and the Bach suites are both professional level repertoire. It's very important to build a bass in solid technique on easier pieces before pushing forward, otherwise later on he'll have to go back and relearn a lot of that stuff.

David Potts · #6 07-29-2008, 08:31 AM

For one so young your son is doing really well on Double Bass.

Is the bass 1/8th size? To me it looks more like a 1/4 already, and about the right size for him now. I'm currently teaching two 8 year olds of about the same height and their basses are smaller, one a Minibass and the other a 1/8th. The only advantage of going to a bigger bass is deeper and perhaps more powerful "bass" sounds. The down side might be greater difficulty with playing in tune because notes in lower positions are further apart.

I agree that there are difficulties keeping really young ones motivated. Your boy is more advanced than mine. As well as youth orchestras, etc above my suggestion would be to encourage some duet playing, both with his teacher and with someone his own age. This one-on-one will help his timing and intonation.

Seeing the video reinforces my ongoing concern about collapsing LH fingers of very young bassists. There is a "three times" theory about learning bad habits. It takes time to learn them, as much time to unlearn them, then more time to re-learn them properly again. Also pianists don't necessarily bring strong ideas about intonation to the bass. A pianist's target is to land anywhere on a key about 1 inch wide whereas a bass player's target is about 1/8th inch wide in lower positions (less for small basses). It becomes even less as notes go closer to the bridge. Good intonation requires constant vigilance by even the best players.

Best Wishes

DP

Eric Swanson · #7 07-29-2008, 10:23 AM

+1 on all the previous technical advice. All great points. The intonation and curved fingers stuff is key. Perhaps you could have him visualize singing through his shoulder, arm, and hand, into the fingerboard.

Thanks so much for sharing this. Your son is a gem! I hope that my four-year old wants to play half that much, one day. He looks so happy, playing.

For inspiration, two other thoughts:

- See/hear great players, close up. Have him study, individually, with a great pro player who makes a beautiful arco sound every time. It will give him a good model. I still have my former teachers' sounds stuck in my head, years later.

- Encourage him to try other types of music. The bass can travel into a lot of different worlds. Expose him to jazz bassists. Have him try to play along with the radio. Let him play along with some R and B grooves. Let him flirt with old-timey, bluegrass, funk, Latin, Indian, Klezmer, whatever. All roads lead to Rome...music is music.

Let him and his little pals have some jam sessions at the house. You folks can hide upstairs...

I started young, on 'cello. It got dry for me after a few years, as a child, because the orchestral, chamber, and solo music I played felt irrelevant to the music happening around me (in the DC area, in the '60's).

I got into bass because I was trying to play my 'cello like one; playing along, pizz, with the radio, late at night. I still appreciate the bass for its versatility. It can go a lot of places.

jgbass · #8 07-29-2008, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eli_Upright12

I would suggest that he slow down his progress and work on the basics a little while longer, he's obviously very talented, but I think it would be a huge value to play some less technical repertoire. What he is playing right now is very difficult and Beethoven's 5th and the Bach suites are both professional level repertoire. It's very important to build a bass in solid technique on easier pieces before pushing forward, otherwise later on he'll have to go back and relearn a lot of that stuff.

I agree totally with these comments. When I started DB, I wanted to rush into these more complex pieces. This hurt my development and I had to backtrack and focus on learning simpler pieces more thoroughly and really concentrate on good intonation and technique. Good technique is easier to learn than trying to correct some ingrained unhelpful playing habits.

neilG · #9 07-29-2008, 03:53 PM

I've never taught anyone that young, but given the physical limitations of the typical 8 yr. old, ie., short with weak little hands, I'd be hesitant to second-guess any teacher not being more strict with exact technique. It may not yet be POSSIBLE for him to do certain things absolutely correctly, in which case letting him have some fun and not scaring him away from moving all over the bass may not be a bad thing.
I would venture to guess that as he gets stronger and taller some of the technical problems will resolve. IF the teacher keeps on top of it.

Eli_Upright12 · #10 07-29-2008, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgbass

I agree totally with these comments. When I started DB, I wanted to rush into these more complex pieces. This hurt my development and I had to backtrack and focus on learning simpler pieces more thoroughly and really concentrate on good intonation and technique. Good technique is easier to learn than trying to correct some ingrained unhelpful playing habits.

I though more about this also and as much as you don't want to suck the fun out of music its important to develop a sense of how to learn a song/piece/tune thoroughly, I had a habit when I was younger of just learning pieces until they were playable, not until they were perfect, which is a discipline that it took me 6 years to learn. If you can learn that early you can go anywhere, when you learn that you finally start studying and not just playing.

Pops · #11 07-29-2008, 05:06 PM

as having started the bass at age six, I would say to slow down a lot. The bass is not like the piano or violin, and taking it slow will yield countless good results in time. It is important just to be patient and know that the slow practice will come in handy one day. Taking a look at the book Bass is Best and just going through it slowly and focusing on constantly maintaing a good sound quality and good form with curved fingers.eventually over the years the technique will progress to the level of Bach and Beethoven, but you gotta pay your dues with hours of slow boring technique practice.

Eric Swanson · #12 07-30-2008, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eli_Upright12

I though more about this also and as much as you don't want to suck the fun out of music its important to develop a sense of how to learn a song/piece/tune thoroughly, I had a habit when I was younger of just learning pieces until they were playable, not until they were perfect, which is a discipline that it took me 6 years to learn. If you can learn that early you can go anywhere, when you learn that you finally start studying and not just playing.

Great insight here, IMHO. I had one unforgettable lesson with former NYPhil Principal Robert Brennand when I was in school.

He emphasized learning music really deeply. He talked about not even being able to begin playing a piece until I could play it from memory. He considered memorization to the point where I could sing the music an essential first step. Also a way to make the whole process more musical and personally engaging.

Doesn't have to be traditional repertoire. Children's songs, anything. Thinking about making a beautiful, vocal sound on the bass. Phrasing, breathing. Much more fun than blasting through page after page, skimming the surface (for me, anyway).

Here's another thought...I have been watching the Leonard Bernstein "Young People's Concerts" series from the '50's and '60's with my four-year-old daughter. Mr. Brennand is the Principal bass, with Frederick Zimmerman, Assistant Principal. Both German and French bow players in the section. My daughter digs it, hard. She has taken to conducting me when I practice and composing songs on her kiddie keyboard.

It is available on Netflix, is a powerful source of inspiration, and provides some really great musical education for kids. If your son hasn't seen them, this could be a good time for the whole family.

There's also a disc (available from Netflix) of Michael Tilson Thomas and the San Francisco Symphony preparing for, then performing Tchaikovsky's Sixth Symphony. One of the extended player vignettes is one of the bassists; it shows him at home, practicing, at work in the section, etc. Whatever one thinks of the interpretation/performance, the disc is another great one for kids interested in the orchestra.

My little girl and I set up a blanket-and-pillow-nest on the Living Room floor, make popcorn, and watch the orchestra rip. She'll say, "Daddy, lets watch orchestra music!"

Broadbent · #13 07-30-2008, 06:36 AM

Slow Down. Have fun.

PocketGroove82 · #14 07-30-2008, 06:44 AM

Part of the motivation factor could be exposing him to different kinds of music. When I was his age I did the classical piano lessons, but when I hit 14 it wasn't cool anymore and I gave it up. Had my strict, Russian piano instructor shown me how to play the blues or explain improvisation to me I think I may have stuck with it.

At least with the upright bass, you can show your son some big band swing stuff where the bass player spins his bass around on the end pin and I think that might keep him hooked. It's worth a try if his interest wanes.

Eric Swanson · #15 07-30-2008, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PocketGroove82

Part of the motivation factor could be exposing him to different kinds of music. When I was his age I did the classical piano lessons, but when I hit 14 it wasn't cool anymore and I gave it up. Had my strict, Russian piano instructor shown me how to play the blues or explain improvisation to me I think I may have stuck with it.

At least with the upright bass, you can show your son some big band swing stuff where the bass player spins his bass around on the end pin and I think that might keep him hooked. It's worth a try if his interest wanes.

+1

Maybe show him this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlQ-C...eature=related

(Not for technique or sound, but just for the pure fun of music)

Eli_Upright12 · #16 07-30-2008, 08:21 AM

Getting him inspired about Classical, Jazz and other type of music is real important. Try to find a concert like Edgar Meyer, Time for Three or a famous jazz orchestra. I remember a sort of eye opening moment for me was getting to see Catalin Rotaru in person. It was at the opening of a luthier's shop and I was able to shake hands with him afterwards. He played the most amazing pieces, some difficult violin concert transposed for bass, a cello sonata transposed, very difficult pieces. My mind was blown that you could do that on bass, I wanted to do that.

Eric Swanson · #17 07-30-2008, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eli_Upright12

Getting him inspired about Classical, Jazz and other type of music is real important. Try to find a concert like Edgar Meyer, Time for Three or a famous jazz orchestra. I remember a sort of eye opening moment for me was getting to see Catalin Rotaru in person. It was at the opening of a luthier's shop and I was able to shake hands with him afterwards. He played the most amazing pieces, some difficult violin concert transposed for bass, a cello sonata transposed, very difficult pieces. My mind was blown that you could do that on bass, I wanted to do that.

Nice. How about the "Appalachian Journey" disc (Netflix, again) with Edgar Meyer, Mark O'Connor, Stephen Foster, Alison Krauss, James Taylor.

Sure, Edgar Meyer plays French bow, but your son will still dig it...

Kjetil Laukholm · #18 07-30-2008, 11:47 AM

I would relax and let him keep doing what he is doing.
he is on the right track, trust me as I have a few 8 year olds.

I think the best thing you could do for him is send him to england once or twice a year to Caroline Emery's bass camp "bass club". She is by many considered the foremost teacher of kids his age. Let his interest of the bass bring him to london etc. He will have a fantastic time there and he will be very well taken care of.
Professor Paul Ellison goes to london to teach at carolines camp more or less once a year. When he is not there someone else of the highest calibre will be there.
Paul is one of the most respected college level teachers and is wonderful with kids.

salcott · #19 07-30-2008, 12:09 PM

I love the fact that he's so fearless; that said, you need to sit down with his teacher and discuss some practice routines, or he's going to have issues further down the road. He needs work on very fundamental things like time and intonation. The trick is in finding ways to work on these things without taking away the obvious joy he gets from playing.

bassist6 · #20 07-30-2008, 12:21 PM

Thank you all SO much for taking the time to reply with such great suggestions and resources. It is going to take me awhile to digest it all! I especially appreciate all the links to videos, recordings, camps, etc. that those of you who are teachers/ parents have shared with your students/ children. I think Noah will really enjoy them!

I agree that "keeping it fun" is of the utmost importance at this age. My son is also playing jazz as well as classical, and his teacher tries to make the lessons fun by teaching him things such as all the sounds different parts of the bass (tailpiece, tuning pegs, etc.) make.

This is a wonderful forum! I am happy that I have found this group!