Which Bach Cello Suite?

Eli_Upright12 · #1 03-25-2007, 01:51 PM

Which one is a good starting point for a bassist that has played through the scarlatti sonatas and the Gminor Eccles?

Justin K-ski · #2 03-25-2007, 03:12 PM

None of them. The Bach cello suites are the hardest music that one can play on bass. People will undoubtly say to play the 3rd bourees and this, in my opinion, is bad advice. Even some of the greatest bassists of all time have had trouble with unaccompanied Bach.

sibass89 · #3 03-25-2007, 03:46 PM

I agree with Justin. I would wait until you at least get through a majority of the romantic repertoire. Wait until you can play Koussevitzsky, Bottesini, and some other works of equal difficulty. Some people will say that it's not necessary but I do not think any player is ready for Bach until they master most of the bass literature.

rockwarnick · #4 03-25-2007, 03:56 PM

cello suite one. i learned that years ago. granted that i play electric (i used to play double and i desperatly want/need one) i dont think it is too challenging. i know its hard with the bow and all but i have the collection of cello suites and that one is clearly the easiest.

Eli_Upright12 · #5 03-25-2007, 03:59 PM

Yeah i quite ambitiously bout the Mark Bernat arranged set of all six and quickly realized that i probalby wasnt gonna be able to play straight through any of the individual suites, I think my plan of attack is to try some of the easier individual parts of the suites, maybe the Gigue of the first. I mean its tough but i just want to challenge myself to push my capabilites, I mean whats the worst that can happen I cant play it?

kontrabass · #6 03-25-2007, 04:43 PM

The worst that can happen is that you'll have to put them on the shelf for a few years. There's no shame in that. If anything, you'll know that you've grown as a musician when you pick them up again.

Eli_Upright12 · #7 03-25-2007, 04:47 PM

Thanks alot everybody all the input is very helpful and constructive. Its really easing to hearthat its not always neccessary to jump straight to the hard stuff(especially for me a relatively young bassist I'm only in my sophemore year of high school). Especially on this site where talk of the Bottesini and Bach stuff is thrown around like there easy pieces.

egbert · #8 03-25-2007, 05:57 PM

Briefly coming out of lurk mode:
You should absolutely get the music for the first suite and play it in the original key, or the third suite transposed down a fourth (written up a fifth from C major to G major). The suites are a lifetime's work and you may not have them performable for years, but they're so much better, musically, than anything else in the repertory, that you should not deny yourself of them. Start them slowly. The Bourree from the 3rd suite, transposed, should be mostly playable if you can do the eccles, but certainly still challenging. This is if you really want to play the suites. If not, then don't do it, of course. Have fun.

ClassicalBass · #9 03-25-2007, 10:43 PM

You seem to be intent on playing the suites, regardless of whether you're technically prepared for them. This sort of passion and determination are necessary for any kind of improvement. I think you should go for it, but don't expect to be able to put together a perfect performance for some time. Those suites are seriously advanced music on bass. Also, I find even the easiest ones to be more difficult than most Bottesini, if only because the suites are so much less forgiving of mistakes, and are so much more exposed than any other music out there. Just one more note: Mark Bernat's edition has a few changes made to it, in which he doesn't even inform the performer of the original notes, chords, etc. You can use that edition (I do), but keep a cellist's edition on hand as well.

Cory Palmer · #10 03-25-2007, 11:38 PM

I agree that you might want to consider waiting a few years before you seriously approach any of the Bach Suites. With that being said the Prelude to the first suite is a good starting point. By no means is it easy but I think it is easier to break down than other movements.

PaulCannon · #11 03-26-2007, 12:15 AM

If you must start now, I think the minuets from the first suite would be the best place to start. What does your teacher think?

bejoyous · #12 03-26-2007, 11:34 AM

A good alternative to the Bach Suites, and they are actually written for the bass, are the Dragonetti Waltzes for solo bass. Musically they are not at the level of Bach, but they are much more idiomatic.

kurt muroki · #13 03-26-2007, 02:50 PM

I might as well ad my 2 cents... I feel that there are good points and bad points to working on music that is too hard for a persons level of playing. some bad points are that the musician would develop bad technique while trying to compensate for the level of difficulty which can also lead to injury. Another bad point is not finishing the piece... It's extremely difficult mentally to go back to a piece that was given up on. Now for some good points. There is nothing like pushing the box to accelerate the learning curve. Practicing extremes makes moderate things seem easy. Also I know many people who have practiced and played the Bach cello suites for their whole lives and still feel that they have a long way to go on them so starting early on them definitely gives the performer an advantage musically (there really is a difference between being a classical bassist and being a musician). Anyway I feel that as long as a person works on keeping correct technique while playing difficult pieces, there is no harm done and will help a persons musicality and technique in the long run.

Chad.mundt · #14 03-26-2007, 03:07 PM

Although I am a doubling musician, I tend to focus on the electric side of things. That said, my experience with the Bach Cello Suites is that they tend to progress in difficulty and harmonic sophistication from 1 to 6. The bowing in all of the suites is not overly difficult, but the Left hand is significantly more difficult. For example, in the Prelude, Suite IV, there is are numerous passages that involve three large interval shifts that change direction. There are shifts in and out half and thumb position at least a few times per bar. And, not to mention, it is in Eb, every bassist's favorite key. If you are in your sophomore year of HS, then you are on the ball for even considering these works. I didn't even think about trying the Prelude, Suite I until my junior year of college!

Kudos for challenging yourself. Hope it is as fun for you as it is for me!

Eli_Upright12 · #15 03-26-2007, 04:01 PM

I guess I tend to be very ambitious when I left Madison, WI to come here in mexico for six months i just kind of picked out a couple really difficult pieces that i knew i wouldnt come close to polishing off in six months. You guys have given me some great starting points. And actually Chad i tend to like Eb, because I play in both an orchestra and a full band where i am the only string instrument and in that ensemble we play a lot of pieces in Eb becuase its a really convenient key for band instruments. Thanks for all the input.

Cory Palmer · #16 03-26-2007, 05:45 PM

There are parts of the 4th Suite that are impossible to play on the bass in the key of E flat I think it's mainly the Prelude. Ira Gold played the 4th Suite at Peabody last semester and put it in D.

PsionAxis · #17 04-10-2007, 10:30 AM

Like some of you that posted before, I started playing some of the Cello Suites on ELECTRIC bass way before I even started on upright. Just because of the tuning difference from a cello to bass makes it very hard to navigate. I guess im not saying anything that someone hasnt said already. But my advice, is that on electric, they are great endeavors because they teach you how to manipulate your hand to voice certain chords (prelude to suite 1) and greatly improves your dexterity and proper shifting and right hand technique. On the double bass, I would forsee big navigation and intonation issues if this is literature you have never attempted before.

Not trying to discourage anyone, just stating the facts that its really tough and that there is plenty of challenging literature that is written exclusively for the Double Bass that would help you out just as much as this would.

ClassicalBass · #18 04-10-2007, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsionAxis

Like some of you that posted before, I started playing some of the Cello Suites on ELECTRIC bass way before I even started on upright. Just because of the tuning difference from a cello to bass makes it very hard to navigate. I guess im not saying anything that someone hasnt said already. But my advice, is that on electric, they are great endeavors because they teach you how to manipulate your hand to voice certain chords (prelude to suite 1) and greatly improves your dexterity and proper shifting and right hand technique. On the double bass, I would forsee big navigation and intonation issues if this is literature you have never attempted before.

Not trying to discourage anyone, just stating the facts that its really tough and that there is plenty of challenging literature that is written exclusively for the Double Bass that would help you out just as much as this would.

I think playing anything on a fretted instrument helps simply because then you get to hear it without any intonation problems. The same holds true for playing it on piano, which is what Edgar does. Ultimately, however, those instruments cannot sing nearly as well as the cello or bass.

bbates77 · #19 06-02-2007, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory Palmer

There are parts of the 4th Suite that are impossible to play on the bass in the key of E flat I think it's mainly the Prelude. Ira Gold played the 4th Suite at Peabody last semester and put it in D.

I'm playing the fourth for an end of semester recital. I love it!!! I'm using the Sterling edition transposed down a minor 7th to F major. Sterling has rearranged most of the notes to suit a four string bass (and there is a rhythmic error in the Bouree no. 1), I've rewritten it for a five string so the intervals remain the same but a little muddy in places. The gigue is super tricky but it was well worth it. I've conquored!!!

quenoil · #20 06-02-2007, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory Palmer

There are parts of the 4th Suite that are impossible to play on the bass in the key of E flat I think it's mainly the Prelude. Ira Gold played the 4th Suite at Peabody last semester and put it in D.

Not impossible... Rabbath plays it in Eb. I've heard some of his as-yet-unreleased recording of the 6 suites. Who knows when it will finally be released...