Beginning in IV or I

[mxr255]

I am in the process of exploring topics of research for my Masters Thesis. I am very interested in looking into the topic of starting students in fourth position vs. first position.

Does anyone know of any writings in this topic area? Books, journals, postings on this site or other sites, and method books etc.

I thank you for your time.

Matt

[chubbyjackson]

If you can get in touch with Dan Swaim or George Vance- both prominent exponents of Suzuki bass- either could give you the in depth rationale for starting in IV, especially for younger kids. I wonder where Rabbath is on this issue... in any case, good luck.

[TomGale]

Starting a student in D (IV) position (couldn't resist!) makes a great deal of common sense and Dan & George have proved that. Almost all of the students I was getting had already begun back in A (I) position (he-he!) so when I planned the 'Practical Studies', I decided to go with the A position covering every fundamental I could think of and then moving to D pos. Then, back and forth between them and then adding the third finger on the octave. The first 8 pages are devoted to that sequence. To me, it made sense to physically outline the fingerboard in that way.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com

ps. don't you really like position labeling A & D, etc., better than I & IV??? Make believe you are a beginner - dosen't it make more sense?

[mxr255]

Thank you for your comments. I do call it D and A position with students, but I wanted to put it universal terms for the forum.

[riimodar]

Violin method (not double bass method) by Czech violin teacher Eva Bublova begins in some higher position (not sure which) rather than in the basic position.

I love this approach. Unfortunately, I personally was taught to start even not in A/I position, but in G# position - called half position. The first scales were Bb and F. I think this is the WORST method. The difference between A and D position is not so big as the difference between G#/half and any other position. The first semi-tone is so hard on most beginner basses! It does not allow the pupil to achieve the correct hand position. After months or years of study, when one comes to higher register he realizes he started with wrong habits caused by the heavy half-position!

[mxr255]

i think Bublova started students in III position.

I love this forum. I love asking a question and have people of all different backgrounds giving answers. I have a violinist who is so jealous of this forum.

He thinks that the violin egos get in the way of open discussion.

[TomGale]

Originally Posted by riimodar

The first scales were Bb and F. I think this is the WORST method.

AMEN!!! Also, starting in D position is easier if the student is seated.

TG

[JoeyNaeger]

Just out of curiosity, but where is 4th position for you? I thought this thread was about starting kids in thumb position which I know Rabbath is actually an advocate of. I would like to try that on a student, but I'm usually preparing them to play in orchestra so they need to know the lower octave really well. Starting in D position and working down to first is a really smart idea though and if that's how it is done in the George Vance books.

[damonsmith]

I think this is a very interesting and certainly valid idea, I don't think calling a way that so many great players learned "the worst" is all that productive.

Clearly, starting in half position works or we would not have the great bassists we have today.
I agree that many aspects of the existing methods are dated, but throwing out something so proven altogether is not the best way, either.

I might look at teaching half and thumb positions concurrently as a more productive way to update things.

What I do think is we are certainly at a point where no one method will cut it and I see no reason to condense things. Taking the time to consult with each great thinker about the bass separately is not a tall order for the serious student.

When I start students with Simandl, I tell them it is only a beginning and over the course of lessons I expose them to several other methods and systems.

[nathanmcnathan]

While I'm not a classical player, I taught myself to play starting with the G# position... mostly because I started on electric bass, and now I know that it really screwed me up for a while. Now I can play in all positions reasonably well, without thinking of what position I'm in.

[Felessan]

My college band director told me a great story once:

He taught a youngster to play the trumpet. At his first lesson, he told the kid all about how to hold the trumpet and how to play with the correct embouchure (that's the shape of your lips, for you non-wind players). The very first sound the kid made was a high C above the staff. Naturally, the director was amazed. The kid had some natural gift here! They went on like this for a while, and then the director told the kid that that note was a _really_ high note and was hard to play. Right after that, the kid couldn't play it anymore.

During my first year of study, my teacher told me thumb position was hard and I wasn't ready. But I, being the smart-ass I was (and still am), didn't listen to him and explored it myself. I think, in this special case, I got lucky that my attitude won. I watched other students struggle because they thought things were hard--and that made it hard for them! Go figure.

I think it's incredibly valuable to have familiarity, and subsequent non-fear, of the entire instrument from day one.

Take from that what you will...
-Trevor

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Felessan

My college band director told me a great story once:

He taught a youngster to play the trumpet. At his first lesson, he told the kid all about how to hold the trumpet and how to play with the correct embouchure (that's the shape of your lips, for you non-wind players). The very first sound the kid made was a high C above the staff. Naturally, the director was amazed. The kid had some natural gift here! They went on like this for a while, and then the director told the kid that that note was a _really_ high note and was hard to play. Right after that, the kid couldn't play it anymore.

During my first year of study, my teacher told me thumb position was hard and I wasn't ready. But I, being the smart-ass I was (and still am), didn't listen to him and explored it myself. I think, in this special case, I got lucky that my attitude won. I watched other students struggle because they thought things were hard--and that made it hard for them! Go figure.

I think it's incredibly valuable to have familiarity, and subsequent non-fear, of the entire instrument from day one.

Take from that what you will...
-Trevor

I agree 100%, perception is often our only limitation. I came to the double bass with pretty big view of what it can do, and for the most part I have been able to get it do those things and more.
I don't present any of it as hard, just as fact and as things that can be done with the correct practice and preparation.

[TomGale]

Originally Posted by mxr255

I am very interested in looking into the topic of starting students in fourth position vs. first position. Matt

I started to think back - WAY back - and I don't think I ever started a student from the beginning - like lesson #1. They always came to me already playing - good, bad or indifferent. Many or most came out of a public school program and having been taught by a non-bassist string teacher. So, in all those cases, it was taking them from where ever they were, heavy on the fundamentals and working from there. A (1st) position was by far the most common ground in which they felt semi-comfortable so, it was A position and then to D position, etc. I never did like the 1/2 step creep upward.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com

[damonsmith]

I start students in half pos. I think it is good to get their hand opened, so we do F and Bb Major in Simandl, then move over to G Major, once they can manage that I give them the two octave G Major scale. After they can manage that, we go back to C, at C we do it in both C positions: C on the A string and C on the E, using several different fingerings including using pivots and all four fingers.
This way balances between creeping up in half steps and getting up the neck.

[David Potts]

I must say I'm hooked on starting kids with 1st position, partly because the younger ones are often in junior string programs at schools, using class methods like Strictly Strings and playing smaller basses. My youngest student currently is eight years old and plays a 1/8th size bass. The class methods for beginning strings are usually building towards the D Major scale over one octave. We now have a very good String Class Method in Australia called "Tricks To Tunes" by Audrey Ackerman (Flying Strings) of which I use Book 1. There is another good Australian book using Ist Position called "I Bags The Bass" by Chris Belshaw (Currency Press) that has no fingerings in it and suits older beginners who can read a bit or can be used to consolidate after Tricks to Tunes.
Both draw on well known simple tunes that are mostly interesting. Older teenagers and adults can start in Simandl Ist Position and read through I Bags Bass at the same time

I like starting beginners in 1st position because the A on G sounds a Fifth above D and gives a stable easy-to-locate starting point. I can also send a kid home on the first day playing "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star", all six notes of it, on the first day whether they can read music or not - very good for morale. Even if only names (DDAABBA-GG etc)and use a simple "road map", a diagram similar to a guitar tab to position the notes on "frets".

Psychologically I think starting in 1st Position is better. The bass sounds like a bass here, the notes are easy to find, hold down and pitch off open strings and you can learn to play simple tunes quickly. The student doesn't feel patronised by starting so far from the end of the string. They are starting in "first" position. Also the left hand is at eye level when standing and the student can see and correct hand and finger shapes.

Maybe the real skill required of the First Teacher is to have a number of approaches and a large recipe book of ideas, to suit the range of ages, heights and previous musical experiences of students who come their way? Be versatile?

DP

[TomGale]

Originally Posted by David Potts

I can also send a kid home on the first day playing "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star", all six notes of it, on the first day whether they can read music or not - very good for morale. Even if only names (DDAABBA-GG etc)and use a simple "road map", a diagram similar to a guitar tab to position the notes on "frets". DP

Excellent point. Many teachers are so into technique that they are in danger of forgetting why the student wants to play - they want to play music (which, in their world, is something they sort of know). "Twinkle, Twinkle" they know. Once I have reviewed the 1st position notes, fundamentals and basic rhythms, I used "Old Suzanna!" all in 1st pos. in D.
Next page, "Skip to My Lou" same pos., same key slightly more difficult rhythms but almost all love it. Next page I did somethng a little different. I did "Up on a Roof Top" in D again - all in 1st - BUT the second half, I switch to d minor having introduced the F and Bb earlier on the page. Its called "A Happy-Sad Christmas"
Hey - you can't get everything you want.....
Tom Gale