College Orchestra Bowings

jdapodaca · #1 02-06-2007, 08:02 AM

This question is directed mostly for current college students or to those who have graduated college.

In your college orchestra, how were bowings generally worked out between sections? When you get your music, are the parts already bowed? If not, do you have meetings with the principal players of the other sections to determine what is best? Or do you just simply bow the parts, hand them to your section to copy, and that's that? Do your teachers bow the parts?

We generally get the parts unbowed, so I have to make bowings, which I don't mind, but it does create a bit of controversy when the principal players don't agree on bowings.

There has been a bit on controversy on the issue lately at my school, and I'd like to see what other schools do to take care of this.

Also, what are your opinions of, say, one of the violin faculty simply bowing all of the parts? We tried this last semester and it had a pretty terrble outcome.

Stan Haskins · #2 02-06-2007, 08:53 AM

This is a good question, Jesus - I can't wait to hear more responses. Here are some of the ones given to me when I asked a similar question:

Guidelines for orchestral bowing

http://www.smithbassforums.com/showt...?p=432#post432

I hope more people add to this thread. . .

Cory Palmer · #3 02-06-2007, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdapodaca

This question is directed mostly for current college students or to those who have graduated college.

In your college orchestra, how were bowings generally worked out between sections? When you get your music, are the parts already bowed? If not, do you have meetings with the principal players of the other sections to determine what is best? Or do you just simply bow the parts, hand them to your section to copy, and that's that? Do your teachers bow the parts?

We generally get the parts unbowed, so I have to make bowings, which I don't mind, but it does create a bit of controversy when the principal players don't agree on bowings.

There has been a bit on controversy on the issue lately at my school, and I'd like to see what other schools do to take care of this.

Also, what are your opinions of, say, one of the violin faculty simply bowing all of the parts? We tried this last semester and it had a pretty terrble outcome.

Both schools that I have been to do it differently (Peabody and Michigan State University). At Peabody the bowings are put it in by the librarians and assistants. I think the conductor figures out the bowings. Very rarely do we change what is in the part. The bowings are usually worked out pretty well.

Michigan State wasn't as organized. When I sat principal I usually needed to change a lot of bowings. When it was possible I tried to match the other string sections and sometimes I would talk to the other principals to discuss what they thought of a particular bowing. I usually went with what worked best for the section. If I was having trouble figuring out good bowings I would go to my teacher for help.

I'm not sure if having a member of the violin faculty do all the bowings would be a good idea. A lot of violinists don't realize that many bowings that work well on violin don't work at all on bass. Maybe having a member of the violin, cello, and bass faculty get together and figure out bowings would be a better solution.

sibass89 · #4 02-06-2007, 05:38 PM

Here at CCM the students do all the bowing. I don't think faculty members should figure out bowings, that is kind of High Schoolish. Basically here the principals meet together and meet with the conductor and mark the parts themselves. In a professional orchestra its similar, except you don't put the markings in all the parts, the librarians do.

kurt muroki · #5 02-06-2007, 09:21 PM

I think that it is great for students to try and figure out bowings on their own outside of orchestra, I also feel that it is important to see what conductors want to do musically, then alter their bowings to match the instrument. but... most students are preparing for orchestral auditions. Most auditionees use standard orchestral bowings when taking auditions to show that they are well trained, not to mention that most standard bowings work... so why not use standard orchestra bowings in orchestra? I see no harm in teachers putting bowings in orchestra parts. The only drawback if if students take bowings for granted. I always try to remember that when I put bowings in orchestra music, I am experimenting with everyone in my section.

Stan Haskins · #6 02-07-2007, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurt muroki

Most auditionees use standard orchestral bowings when taking auditions to show that they are well trained, not to mention that most standard bowings work... so why not use standard orchestra bowings in orchestra?

OK, Kurt - These answers are starting to make some sense to me. Now, apart from learning each "standard" excerpt from a teacher (I never seem to have enough time in my lessons to really dig into this) where can one go to find some of these "standard orchestral bowings"?

kurt muroki · #7 02-07-2007, 03:59 PM

hey stan, I really wished that I had some congruency between my lessons and orchestra when I was still in school in terms of bowings. There are the standard books like the zimmerman books (oscar and fred) etc. but the best is to take lessons with principal players arround. Even better if they are in one of the top orchestras. Also I would recommend going to concerts and taking a score or a part along (as long as it is not annoying to the concert goers) and see how they bow the excerpts.

jdapodaca · #8 02-07-2007, 11:43 PM

With regards to the Zimmerman books, many people say that these bowings are "outdated." We don't all use the same fingerings that are in these parts; why use the same bowings?

I generally use the bowings unless my teacher says to do something different, but aside from playing in the same orchestra for a few decades, how are students supposed to know when to change bowings and when not to?

We are lucky to have the Zimmerman books, but I don't believe that every bass section uses those same bowings. Also, its easy to bow the few measures of the excerpt that is in the book, but what about the rest of the piece?

It'd be great if some major orchestras published the first stand parts of their entire library, but this will never happen.

I guess the point I am making is that I'm asking more generally about bowing entire pieces rather than just a few excerpts.

Stan Haskins · #9 02-08-2007, 06:42 AM

WHen you guys (Kurt and Jesus) are referring to the ZImmerman books, are you referring to sets of orchestra parts? Could you be more specific? I use the "Contemprary Concept of Bowing" book, the Zimmerman edition of Simandl, and some Zimmerman solo editions. I'd like to be sure what you're talking about.

Also, Kurt, your point about studying with principles and going to concerts is well taken - that's certainly the best way to do it. As a full-time teacher and father of three young ones, it's unfortunately a little impractical for me right now (I do make it to lessons with a good teacher, but they are not as often as I would like, and there never seems to be enough time to hit all of these topics). I'm not really looking for a shortcut, but a starting point to put the different choices sections make into context (if that makes any sense at all . .. )

Cory Palmer · #10 02-08-2007, 08:56 AM

The Oscar Zimmerman books are complete orchestra parts and the Fred Zimmerman books are just excerpts. I'm not familiar with the Fred Zimmerman books. Most of the bowings in Oscar's books are still standard in a lot of orchestras. There are other standard bowings that vary from orchestra to orchestra. The fingerings in Oscar's books are very good too, for the most part.

One of the best ways to bow part is to work backwards. Figure out what bow you want to end on and go from there.

Stan Haskins · #11 02-08-2007, 09:08 AM

Thanks, Cory - I know I'll be able to find out which ones when I'm not on a network that "blocks" half of the www from my view - could you tell me the name of the Oscar Zimmerman books you're referring to?

Cory Palmer · #12 02-08-2007, 12:04 PM

They are "The Complete Bass Parts" of whatever symphonies.

http://shop1.mailordercentral.com/le...p?number=ZIM01
http://shop1.mailordercentral.com/le...p?number=ZIM02
http://shop1.mailordercentral.com/le...p?number=ZIM03
http://shop1.mailordercentral.com/le...p?number=ZIM04
http://shop1.mailordercentral.com/le...p?number=ZIM05
http://shop1.mailordercentral.com/le...p?number=ZIM06
http://shop1.mailordercentral.com/le...p?number=ZIM07
http://shop1.mailordercentral.com/le...p?number=ZIM08

Stan Haskins · #13 02-08-2007, 01:05 PM

Thank you, Cory. These editions are marked up with "standard" bowings?

Cory Palmer · #14 02-08-2007, 09:57 PM

jdapodaca · #15 02-08-2007, 11:20 PM

Most of the time I go with the O. Zimmerman bowings. Sometimes the other sections disagree with the bowings, and "but that's what is in my Zimmerman book," doesn't quite do it to make the other sections change their bowing.

Do y'all know if there is anything like the Oscar Zimmerman parts available for the other instruments? If there is, have any of you compared bowings in those parts?