Edgar Meyer (Vibrato)

mcnaire2004 · #1 01-27-2007, 06:30 PM

I have ready many threads (most of them really old) with people questioning Edgars lack of use of vibrato.

Well today I drove down to a workshop he ran with Chris Thile. During the Q&A some one beat me to this question.

His response was pretty lengthy but in a nutshell here is what he said.

To Bach: It doesn't sound musical to him and that it sounds like mush along with the historically way to play Bach. It moves some people but it doesn't move him. *He also relates the Suites verry close to keyboard music. And, should attempt to sound like it.

In general: He said that in his search up until about the 20th century violinist didn't use vibrato as crazy as it is today. Vibrato was a select technique for special occasions and special notes. And before the 20th century people who used allot of vibrato were looked at awkwardly as if that was "eww" which is how Edgar looks at it now. He also said that the bass as a member of the viol family doesn't have the sound for vibrato.

Me personally am working on improving my vibrato. And my teacher plays with heavy vibrato (sounds incredible). He is a Gary Karr guy so thats where he gets that but is a Meyer fan to.

The master class was short (45 mins) and only three players were in it. One was from here in TN who's teacher is on this board I think. The other two were Ralf Jones students.

The girl from TN (don't want to use her name online with out her permission) played a Bach suite. Edgar said he had never played that one but he had taught it (don't remember which one). The Ralf Jones students both played Eccles. And Edgar played part of it on his bass. And anyone who said Edgar couldn't sound musical is crazy. He used incredible vibrato.

I understand where he comes from on vibrato. I took from it what I could and I'll incorporate it to what I'm playing (I'm still going to use a but load of vibrato).

Is there any truth to the 'rare vibrato for violinist before 1900'?

Thoughts?

BTW he performed with Mr. Thile and it was increadible. I couldn't stay this evening for the main performance.

EDIT: one thing about Bach that I remembered is added*.

Johnny L · #2 01-27-2007, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnaire2004

[Edgar Meyer] used incredible vibrato.

I agree, he can vibrate with the best. One can hear him do it for his Bottesini recording, and I saw him do it with great control in concert performing the same concerto.

Being able to decide when and when not to add vibrato, and controlling all its attributes...that's one hell of a bag to be able to reach into.

My last lesson she played a line in a tune she assigned for me to learn, and her vibrato rate changed between notes. It blew me away! I had to "take the ball and run with it" on that one, push back whatever else I was supposed to learn to focus on that idea. The way she did it, it was beautiful!

mcnaire2004 · #3 01-27-2007, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny L

I agree, he can vibrate with the best. One can hear him do it for his Bottesini recording, and I saw him do it with great control in concert performing the same concerto.

Being able to decide when and when not to add vibrato, and controlling all its attributes...that's one hell of a bag to be able to reach into.

My last lesson she played a line in a tune she assigned for me to learn, and her vibrato rate changed between notes. It blew me away! I had to "take the ball and run with it" on that one, push back whatever else I was supposed to learn to focus on that idea. The way she did it, it was beautiful!

I agree with you.

I wasn't making a point that he can vibrate with the best (he can). I was mearly giving a explanation he gave us at the workshop of why he rarely uses vibrato on anything at all (even the bottesini). I have heard many people on this board talk about it. The question came up during Q&A and he gave a pretty long responce.

**Jeremy Allen** · #4 01-27-2007, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnaire2004

Is there any truth to the 'rare vibrato for violinist before 1900'?

Yes, certainly. If we heard a Brahms symphony played today as it would have sounded in the composer's time, we would be in for quite a surprise. Whether or not there's any point in trying to reproduce an older performance practice is a huge can of worms which has been opened at length elsewhere (see here for a good intro); personally, I think Edgar's version of the cello suites (without vibrato) sounds fantastic, and I'm glad that you pointed out that he does use vibrato beautifully when he feels it serves his musical message.

Tritonis · #5 01-27-2007, 11:18 PM

Ahhh...I love good vibrato but repsect Edgar Meyer's opinion so much. I'm torn.

Johnny L · #6 01-28-2007, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnaire2004

I was mearly giving a explanation he gave us at the workshop of why he rarely uses vibrato on anything at all (even the bottesini).

Sorry I never lived, nor have I ever heard recordings of musical performances, in the 19th century. But whatever Edgar Meyer says regarding vibrato fashion in those days is fine by me.

BMason · #7 01-28-2007, 09:47 PM

I look at vibrato in the same way Hal Robinson does: it's usually appropriate, but sometimes using no vibrato helps certain phrases stand out, even in the most romantic solo works. Just like with varying tempi, varying the "voice" of the instrument can make a piece more interesting and more successful.

PaulCannon · #8 01-28-2007, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny L

Sorry I never lived, nor have I ever heard recordings of musical performances, in the 19th century. But whatever Edgar Meyer says regarding vibrato fashion in those days is fine by me.

Yes, but many treatises on the subject have survived and through them we know a great deal about how the use and practice of vibrato has evolved in the last 300 years.

I tend to use a lot less vibrato when playing Bach than when I play Vaughan Williams, for instance. It can be used sparingly and still be effective.

kurt muroki · #9 01-29-2007, 09:36 AM

I'm a big believer in experimenting... if you end up liking to use vibrato, then use it, if not then don't... if every bassist either left out or used vibrato, then I'd be one bored listener. one other thing... I think that how people use the bow is a big factor in determining if their vibrato sounds good or not. vibrato warms up a persons sound and can sound mushy if there is not enough focused sound being produced by the bow. for me thats extreme example of why vibrato works for gary karr and not for edgar.

mcnaire2004 · #10 01-29-2007, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurt muroki

I'm a big believer in experimenting... if you end up liking to use vibrato, then use it, if not then don't... if every bassist either left out or used vibrato, then I'd be one bored listener. one other thing... I think that how people use the bow is a big factor in determining if their vibrato sounds good or not. vibrato warms up a persons sound and can sound mushy if there is not enough focused sound being produced by the bow. for me thats extreme example of why vibrato works for gary karr and not for edgar.

That almost sounds like it came right out of my teachers mouth.

BMason · #11 01-30-2007, 02:42 PM

I agree with Paul. I've been working on the 3rd suite for about three months now and, if used at appropriate times, vibrato helps the sustain of shortly-bowed notes.

Wild Rice Chris · #12 02-01-2007, 11:18 PM

A large chunk of my development was spent without a teacher and away from other bassists at or above my level. I use vibrato much less than others, and it is based on my personal opinion of how a piece should be played. So many times I hear someone trying to overdo it where a straight pitch would be more effective. Use your ears.

AndersLasson · #13 02-10-2007, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Edgar Meyer (Vibrato)
...
Is there any truth to the 'rare vibrato for violinist before 1900'?

Yes, todays research on music history believes that vibrato was used with restraint before some 1800 (so says my wife who has a master in music, organ). This is true for both singers and instrumentalists.

IMHO, I think that vibrato has to be used with some moderation to avoid sounding like very old women singing with an excessive vibrato. But at the right place and with the approprate music (Wagner?) it is fine. A good thing with vibrato though is that it often covers intonation problems ...

kurt muroki · #14 02-12-2007, 12:12 AM

yeah there is documention of vibrato during corelli's time

Heifetzbass · #15 02-12-2007, 10:37 AM

I find vibrato to be quite overused in most peoples playing. Have you ever listened to a great clarinetist? Is their playing any less expressive without vibrato? IMHO, no.

How about a great choir? Do they vibrato every note? Can you imagine if they all used a different vibrato at once?

I find that of the bass sections I play in- the one that uses the least amount of vibrato (collectively) plays more in tune as a section. It is easier to adjust to pitch if there aren't as many oscillations floating in your ear. That is not to say there isn't vibrato, but it is used judiciously and for function, not to cover up bad intonation.

I do not allow students to vibrato during scale studies, or any time we are focusing on intonation. I want pure pitch. I try to have students play through a piece without vibrato, then add it where they think it should go. I want this technique to be another color on the tone pallete to paint with- not some gut reaction you have when you start a note.

Ask yourself this, can you play a scale without vibrato? It is harder than it sounds...

I have played for Edgar quite a few times. His comment to me about a Bach suite was, "Bring the audience in to you. Make them sit on the edge of their seat and make them hold on to every note." I think that his take on vibrato is much in the same vein. A lot of players are bombastic and everything is "in your face" playing. As bassists we tend to "over play" because of projection issues and our need to prove that we are a true "solo instrument".

Just wanted to weigh in on this subject as I have focused on developing an expressive vibrato over the years. One size fits all vibrato can be very boring, and no vibrato can be boring. You have to find your voice and use the vibrato where you can't stand not to.

FWIW,
Brian

normanl · #16 03-19-2007, 08:04 PM

for me vibrato is an effect rather than an way to hide bad intonation and if it is used properly it is an interesting way add charecter to your music but can get old very quikly

Norwegianwood · #17 03-20-2007, 06:47 PM

I´ve been known for my overusage of vibrato, no matter what instrument I play. (Well, perhaps not on piano - but then there´s the sustain pedal

) It´s a bit of a drag, because to my opinion vibrato sounds so much better when used properly and tastefully.

I have always been under the impression that baroque calls for little vibrato, while romantic music usually need more. I´m not sure, though, but that´s the way I´ve done it.
I´m sure there´s lots of books on the subject. Back then, they tended to write all the "rules" down.

JazzDude · #18 03-20-2007, 11:20 PM

I personally enjoy a good vibrato tone on all the stringed pieces I listen to. Whether or not its use would match the vibrato at the time Bach composed it, I'm sure that I would have enjoyed Meyer's Bach recordings more if he had used a more conventional (for today) vibrato tone.

Incidentally, I think that the string players in the 19th century would have used vibrato, whether it was documented or not. A musician's instinct would be to imitate singers, who most assuredly sang with vibrato.

That being said, I'd like to make it clear that I admire Edgar's virtuosic technique, taste, and eclecticism, and will probably never be worthy of playing for him.

AndersLasson · #19 03-22-2007, 03:32 PM

Before some 1800 (eighteen hundred) musicians did not use a lot of vibrato (for example during Bach and Mozart time). So, during the 19th century musicians used vibrato to greater extent (during Wagner, Beethoven, ...).

BR,

Anders Lasson

Tbeers · #20 03-25-2007, 08:14 AM

Especially in section playing, if the bassists aren't obsessed with using vibrato on every note, then they're freed up to play on the open strings more often. This obviously can have a substantial (positive) impact on the intonation of the section. In solo playing as well, using the open strings when appropriate provides a valuable reference point for intonation. We all know that. It's interesting how many young bassists are taught to avoid playing on the open strings because it means giving up vibrato. That's how I was taught throughout middle school -- play on an open string only when there's a specific and compelling reason to do so. This approach causes some difficulties and I'm not sure it's worthwhile. So that's just another ramification of this discussion on vibrato....