French grip, beginner pain, and biomechanics

[MostlyBass]

I definitely like teaching German to beginners but I don't preclude starting a student on French.

[powerbass]

As both a beginner UB student and a muscular therapist I have also noticed wrist pain w/French Bow grip practice. Here's my take on it. The action of holding the bow w/French grip is challenging to the wrist and forearm, the technical term for the wrist action is Radial Deviation. Most of the muscles that hold the bow in radial deviation also help flex the elbow. So what you get are muscles working hard moving multiple joints with precise control in an isometric contraction. The bow is a long lever that increases the wrist stress - the farther away weight/resistance is to a joint the stress of muscle force/control increases exponentially. I have dealt with this issue in a couple of ways. I focus on relaxing, not over gripping the bow or excessively tightening my shoulder, jaw, arm forearm muscles. I focus on relaxed breathing. I try to use the least amount of muscle contraction/force to produce the desired movement/motion/sound. It is ok to tighten up w/faster more difficult passages but knowing when to and how to rest/relax on easier passages is essential. It is important to know when to use the wrist primarily or the forearm/shoulder to produce the desired sound. Stress/pain at one joint is often the result of poor movement/force dissipation through the other joints in the moment chain - finger, wrist, forearm, elbow, shoulder, scapula, torso, neck, head. All that said it takes time to develop muscle strength/endurance for radial deviation. Carpenters and other trades people that use hand tools have strong wrists and forearms - not computer types. I used to do wrist exercises w/my bow. I hold the bow w/the same French Grip and slowly move the bow in various angles - most often mimicking the exact position the bow is in when I play. Since the bow hair is not on the strings the full weight of the bow is now borne by my whole right arm/wrist/shoulder. I'll do several reps and 1-2 sets, resting when I feel fatigue/discomfort. I have two bows one heavier than the other. I often practice with the heavier bow (like lifting weights) or use the lighter one if i feel the need. Obviously a lighter bow is easier on the wrist. A simple wrist exercise tool is a hammer, hold it at the end of the handle, move it precisely - pronation, supination, flexion, extension, ulnar and radial deviation. Start with a small, light weight hammer. I apologize if this high jacks the thread.

[hdiddy]

Prob is that someone telling me "don't grip too hard" is meaningless if someone doesn't give me the proper tools and exercises to learn how to play a alternate way that encourages less tension and avoid the use of muscle when I get panicky.

I think the main problem is that with French grip, there are all these subtle nuanced movements that it's not just any one thing but a combination of factors together that can lead to a relaxed grip. I'd ask teachers to look at their hands and grips during lessons - they all look like what I see in videos and photos. The problem is I've still got the grip of death. Of course the obvious difference here is that my hands are unique and not like anyone elses so I have to find my own way to find a relaxed grip with only tips from teachers. Again, the videos I posted were certainly the most effective info I got from anyone.

Again, text written out to describe a good french grip to someone who doesn't know what it's supposed to be like is like dancing about architecture (to borrow that phrase).

[longfinger]

Another thing to throw into the mix is that beginner french grip bows can be poorly balanced and tip heavy. When I started on French grip on a 'give away' bow, I found the grip to be very hard to maintain, likely I was doing it wrong, but I switched to German beginner bow, had less issues and sold the french bow. Later on I upgraded my german bow to something much better balanced and easier to hold too. When I bought my carved bass, I got it with a much better french bow than my first one, and suddenly I was able to hold and play a french bow, with greater ease than before. Perhaps the posture of the german hold allows for easily handling of a poorly made tip-heavy bow than does the posture of a french hold?

[MostlyBass]

Try this - without your bass:
put your bow hand on the bow
with your left hand support the weight at the tip
now, squeeze your right hand and relax it - so you can feel what tense is and what relaxed is. Barry Green recommended with in the Inner Game of Music. By experimenting with different tension and relaxation levels you gain feel and control of the muscles.

[Violen]

I skimmed the thread, so sorry for toe stomping.

1. You are probably gripping your bow too tight and this looks like it was covered.

2. Your bow is probably wound too tight, Loosen it beyond what you think is necessary and see if it alleviates the problem.

3. You don't practice holding your bow! Get a decently fat round pencil and walk arround with it in your hand, Relaxed, in your bow grip. Do this when walking every day from class to class and stuff! My professor made me do this, and it works. I still do it from time to time.

4. Your bow sucks. It's Balance is off and the grippy thing on it is probably making it worse. This isnt an excuse for poor technique from the above! Get every possible variable check out.

5. Your bow needs new hair and you are working too hard to get sound.


Good Luck!

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by MostlyBass

Try this - without your bass:
put your bow hand on the bow
with your left hand support the weight at the tip
now, squeeze your right hand and relax it - so you can feel what tense is and what relaxed is. Barry Green recommended with in the Inner Game of Music. By experimenting with different tension and relaxation levels you gain feel and control of the muscles.

If it were only that simple.

The other missing (and major) part of the equation is the force involved in pressing the hair down on to the strings and the opposing force where the strings push back. The force to provide enough pressure on the strings to sound. On top of that the lighter forces of pushing and pulling the string sideways using the bow hair. This is where I used to get hand cramps.

Yes what BG describes is how it should feel, that's the goal. There is a major gap in how it feels and how to get there in a playing situation, because when you actually generate the sound. It feels nothing like that relaxed state unless you've somehow found the way to get there or given the proper exercise to help you along.

This is what I mean by telling someone to "stop gripping so hard". It's meaningless unless you give the student the proper tools to get there.

EDIT: The point of feeling and using the back muscles with the bow was pretty revealing in D'Addario vids. IMO, I hear too many people just focus on what the hands are doing. It's more than just the hands. Once I learned that I can employ the larger muscles, I relaxed alot more since I wasn't trying to press the strings using the hand/arm as much.

Also, this Klinghoffer vid was a major help too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=ZZA9kE06SVM

And as for hair tension... *** is having it too tight? Define "too tight"? To whom? In my recent lesson with a qualifier teacher - his string hair was far tighter than anything I would've done before I met him. I followed his lead and it's MUCH easier doing it his way (with a stick of Pops too).

[jallenbass]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

There is a major gap in how it feels and how to get there in a playing situation, because when you actually generate the sound. It feels nothing like that relaxed state unless you've somehow found the way to get there or given the proper exercise to help you along.

IME I learned to play relaxed in the practice room and carried it over to playing situations. This was ingrained in me by my teacher in the Cleveland Orchestra and from the one lesson I had with his teacher, John Schaeffer in NY. It's challenging with all that sound around you in an orchestra. You can't compete with a brass section even though we try.

[musicman1586]

Originally Posted by powerbass

As both a beginner UB student and a muscular therapist I have also noticed wrist pain w/French Bow grip practice. Here's my take on it. The action of holding the bow w/French grip is challenging to the wrist and forearm, the technical term for the wrist action is Radial Deviation. Most of the muscles that hold the bow in radial deviation also help flex the elbow. So what you get are muscles working hard moving multiple joints with precise control in an isometric contraction. The bow is a long lever that increases the wrist stress - the farther away weight/resistance is to a joint the stress of muscle force/control increases exponentially. I have dealt with this issue in a couple of ways. I focus on relaxing, not over gripping the bow or excessively tightening my shoulder, jaw, arm forearm muscles. I focus on relaxed breathing. I try to use the least amount of muscle contraction/force to produce the desired movement/motion/sound. It is ok to tighten up w/faster more difficult passages but knowing when to and how to rest/relax on easier passages is essential. It is important to know when to use the wrist primarily or the forearm/shoulder to produce the desired sound. Stress/pain at one joint is often the result of poor movement/force dissipation through the other joints in the moment chain - finger, wrist, forearm, elbow, shoulder, scapula, torso, neck, head. All that said it takes time to develop muscle strength/endurance for radial deviation. Carpenters and other trades people that use hand tools have strong wrists and forearms - not computer types. I used to do wrist exercises w/my bow. I hold the bow w/the same French Grip and slowly move the bow in various angles - most often mimicking the exact position the bow is in when I play. Since the bow hair is not on the strings the full weight of the bow is now borne by my whole right arm/wrist/shoulder. I'll do several reps and 1-2 sets, resting when I feel fatigue/discomfort. I have two bows one heavier than the other. I often practice with the heavier bow (like lifting weights) or use the lighter one if i feel the need. Obviously a lighter bow is easier on the wrist. A simple wrist exercise tool is a hammer, hold it at the end of the handle, move it precisely - pronation, supination, flexion, extension, ulnar and radial deviation. Start with a small, light weight hammer. I apologize if this high jacks the thread.

You aren't hijacking at all, this is EXACTLY what I was hoping to find out starting this thread, and in the back of my head I hoped someone with a background like yours would chime in. If you wouldn't mind me picking your brain a bit more I have some further thoughts about this. There are two things I am curious about. First, when I look at my hand when it is relaxed holding nothing, just in the way it would be hanging at my side, compared to how it is shaped when holding the bow, it seems to me that the thumb has to make a somewhat awkward shift down and forward, and this seems to bring into play a very under-used muscle movement, it is not often that we are called to move our thumbs in such a manner from day to day, so I am curious if you think that plays a role.
Also I read in Jeff Bradetich's book that there's some important differences between the muscle groups used between French and German bow, with German using more "slow twitch" muscle groups which aids in endurance and "power", whereas French grip uses smaller, "fast twitch" muscle groups which allows for faster movement (such as string changes) at the compromise of endurance. Do you think that this plays a role in the differences in the learning curves between each grip?
I'm also very thankful to hear about how far up the chain one needs to pay attention to one's muscles, for example would have never thought about relaxing my jaw or my facial muscles, but I know just enough anatomy to absolutely believe it.
Anyways, thanks again, that's the kind of info I was looking for.

[powerbass]

Good question about the thumb. It is hard to describe what I will try to say, it is much better to try it out on your body and you will see what I mean. The short answer is this. The thumb is flexed while holding the bow in FG, this action is called thumb opposition. The action of holding up the weight of the bow and moving the bow back and forth is radial deviation. The primary muscle, Abductor Pollicis Longus that contributes to radial deviation also abducts or extends the thumb moving it away from the rest of the hand, the opposite action of thumb opposition. So you have contradictory movements and muscle actions of the thumb and wrist. A simple test is to flex your thumb (opposition) and try to move your wrist in radial deviation (side/side). It doesn't feel strong, smooth or even comfortable. Then open up your hand, thumb free, out to the side (abducted) then try radial deviation - it is a much easier, smoother, comfortable motion. The reason for this is that the APL muscle is placed under a stretch with the thumb (flexed) holding the bow and at the same time it has to contract quite forcefully to radial deviate the wrist. The stretch of the APL over the wrist and thumb (carpals) actually restricts the wrist action of radial deviation -not a great scenario for tendons or joints. There are other issues at play here that have to do with joint position relative to gravity (resistance) and muscle actions. If you pick up a glass of water your arm is in front of you and your wrist is in a neutral (handshake) position. There are strong muscles that all line up to perform this task like a biceps curl exercise. With FG your shoulder turns in and the elbow is slightly flexed. The same strong muscles that did a biceps curl are now largely taken out of the picture because of the relationships of joint position (elbow, shoulder) and the relationship to gravity/resistance (FG bow position). I used to get more discomfort at my elbow (tendon pain where the forearm flexors attach) with FG, that was because I kept my elbow slightly bent and used too much muscle force at the forearm. The challenge of playing the UB is the relationships between needing a fair amount of strength to deal with the string length and scale of the instrument and finding ways to develop that strength while learning how to relax and be efficient while being highly precise (fine motor control) with technique.

[David Potts]

In Post #3 above Mostly Bass gave a link to Peter Tambroni's page of bow holds. I favour his French Bow hold No. 1 and the way it lines up with the forearm.

The curved thumb and the spread and shape of fingers opposing it will enable the muscles to relax and the wrist to have maximum freedom of movement. You only need enough strength to maintain this shape while the fingers and wrist flex slightly during bow changes and string crossings. Test this relaxation by seeing fingers, thumb and wrist flex as you pull and push on the stick with your other hand.

Turning the hand in a few degrees while maintaining this shape and spread of fingers, and maintaining the same relationship with the forearm, will throw the weight of the hand forward into the index finger without losing flexibility or sensitivity. The turning in is achieved by raising the elbow up and out slightly. This will align the bending and straightening movements of the elbow (a simple hinge joint) with the direction that the bow points in. The faster "twitch" responses of the biceps and triceps muscles can now produce many of our faster notes while allowing the whole arm to remain relaxed and resting on the string from the shoulder. This use of the elbow will produce 2/3 length bows. The remaining 1/3for a full bow stroke will require the upper arm to move the elbow a few inches while the elbow is straightening and bending. The whole arm moves like a double pendulum, the hand dropping while the elbow lifts, in order to produce a straight line.

Stand in front of your kitchen bench and mimic bowing by running your fingertips along its edge with the elbow lifted slightly and the hand turned in a few degrees. You will see an ideal sequence of flowing arm movements that will produce the straight line of bow stroke. There is no need for lots of wrist pronation and fancy finger movements, or the need to feel that you are bowing from the shoulder. These are forced on you if your elbow is too low because to then bend it will lift the bow off the strings. IMO this will happen if the palm of your bow hand is parallel to the stick (or worse, sloping the other way) when bowing.

Happy Christmas everyone,
Cheers......DP

[MostlyBass]

Thanks for checking it out! Peter (me) is MostlyBass
Jason Heath is the French bow model and I did the German bow.

Thanks visiting my site,
MostlyBass (Peter)

Originally Posted by David Potts

In Post #3 above Mostly Bass gave a link to Peter Tambroni's page of bow holds. I favour his French Bow hold No. 1 and the way it lines up with the forearm.

The curved thumb and the spread and shape of fingers opposing it will enable the muscles to relax and the wrist to have maximum freedom of movement. You only need enough strength to maintain this shape while the fingers and wrist flex slightly during bow changes and string crossings. Test this relaxation by seeing fingers, thumb and wrist flex as you pull and push on the stick with your other hand.

Turning the hand in a few degrees while maintaining this shape and spread of fingers, and maintaining the same relationship with the forearm, will throw the weight of the hand forward into the index finger without losing flexibility or sensitivity. The turning in is achieved by raising the elbow up and out slightly. This will align the bending and straightening movements of the elbow (a simple hinge joint) with the direction that the bow points in. The faster "twitch" responses of the biceps and triceps muscles can now produce many of our faster notes while allowing the whole arm to remain relaxed and resting on the string from the shoulder. This use of the elbow will produce 2/3 length bows. The remaining 1/3for a full bow stroke will require the upper arm to move the elbow a few inches while the elbow is straightening and bending. The whole arm moves like a double pendulum, the hand dropping while the elbow lifts, in order to produce a straight line.

Stand in front of your kitchen bench and mimic bowing by running your fingertips along its edge with the elbow lifted slightly and the hand turned in a few degrees. You will see an ideal sequence of flowing arm movements that will produce the straight line of bow stroke. There is no need for lots of wrist pronation and fancy finger movements, or the need to feel that you are bowing from the shoulder. These are forced on you if your elbow is too low because to then bend it will lift the bow off the strings. IMO this will happen if the palm of your bow hand is parallel to the stick (or worse, sloping the other way) when bowing.

Happy Christmas everyone,
Cheers......DP

[David Potts]

I should add that I will change my bow hold to look more like French Bowhold #2 above (ie hand more parallel to the stick, not turning in and with lower elbow) when playing off the string. Especially when carrying the bounce more, like near the balance point of the bow.

Thus I make a difference between playing "on the string" and "off the string" bow holds.
How different depends on speed, dynamic and length/quality of sounds.

Cheers and Happy New Year,

DP

[Bijoux]

I don't know if this helps....
But I played with the German for about 20 years and because of arthritis and much pain i thought i'd tried the French bow. at first it was very awkward and I experienced a lot of pain, and worst of all couldn't play!
So during the summer after orchestral season was over, I didn't bother to practice with the french bow but I just decided to have it with me and just hold it, which i did for 3 weeks. I even had a cheap french bow that was very heavy and awkward in the car and i held that while I was driving around. So as I was doing things around the house, or just reading, watching TV or a movie I had the bow with me.
Three weeks later I decided to try and play. It felt a lot more natural, I could play again and practice and the pain was gone and hasn't come back.
good luck.

[Swerve]

I'm a new UB player, about four months in now. The first couple of months my hand would be killing me after a short period of time and then I would "shake it out", as my teacher says. At some point though, it just stopped cramping or hurting at all and as long as I practice with a regular schedule I seldom think about it anymore. For me it was definitely a matter of developing and strengthening those hand/wrist/finger muscles.