Holding the German Bow

[Hank Hirsh]

hi
my teacher is telling me to hold the bow so that i push out on up bow and draw in on down bow. also, the bow should be slightly turned inward for down bow (toward the top) and outward for up bow. i can deal with it on long tones, but can't seem to make it right on 8th notes. is it important?
i have seen videos of Gary Karr and he doesn't seem to be doing it as much as my teacher is emphasizing.
anyone have thoughts about it?
thanks
hank

[LM Bass]

Just gotta say. . .

I don't know you, or your teacher, but
if you're not sure if he knows what he's talking about,
why would you study with him?

[anonymous12251111]

Originally Posted by Hank Hirsh

hi
i have seen videos of Gary Karr and he doesn't seem to be doing it as much as my teacher is emphasizing.
anyone have thoughts about it?
thanks
hank

Gary Karr is an incredible player, no one can make a bass sing like him...but I don't think he'd be a very good example of standard German Bow Technique. It seems that he uses little or almost no wrist movement, and I believe some of his bows were actually French Sticks.

[jallenbass]

I don't quite understand your explanation of the technique without seeing it. Could you state it differently?

[mheintz]

It's hard to know what the problem is without some further explanation. There are two general schools of thought on German bow playing: more fixed wrist and more flexible wrist. Gary and some of the NY Phil players play with a more fixed wrist. Folks from the Streicher school play with a more flexible wrist. Of course, many of the players in the Streicher school also use the technique of holding the bow with their first finger on top of the stick, which hold allows for more wrist flexibility. If you want more info on Streicher, perhaps check out David Ruby's forum on talkbass.

Now about finger movement, the basic concept of finger movement on the German bow is not too dissimilar from French bow in that the hand acts like a relaxed spring. You'll see players that move their fingers in both the more fixed wrist school and the more flexible wrist school, the latter generally having more movement. However, in my opinion, in either school, the movement does not start from the fingers but from the shoulder and back or for smaller strokes, the forearm. The fingers and wrist are byproducts of the larger muscle movement. So if you keep a relaxed hand and focus on a relaxed even stroke throughout the bow, you will necessarily move the fingers.

On the German bow, I find that the movement is a product of letting the weight of your shoulder, upper arm and forearm transfer through to your thumb. The thumb and hand will move as you transfer your weight to the bow and move in the up bow or down bow direction. When you "pull" the bow on down bow, your hand will probably extend a bit, and when you "push" the bow on up bow, your hand will compress a bit. The movement may be subtle. Note again that the movement is the result of the stroke starting from the shoulders and back. If you are forcing the movement, then you probably won't have a smooth stroke. To use a sports analogy, the snap of the wrist at the end of punch is a product of one movement beginning with the larger muscles; one doesn't throw the punch and then snap the wrist as a discrete movement.

I play both bows and to me, the two are surprisingly similar in that, in both, the hand acts as a relaxed spring, although the movement of the hand is perhaps more visible on French bow and flexible wrist German bow players.

(By the way, by "flexible," I don't mean to say that more flexible is better than more fixed. I actually play with a more fixed wrist because I feel that I can better transfer my weight through my arm. Your mileage may vary.)

That's my two cents. Perhaps you can give us more information.

[jallenbass]

The analogy that I like is this: Standing in a swimming pool with your hand in the water wave it back and forth in front of you. If your wrist is relaxed then your hand will move as it should.

[LouisF]

Somebody somewhere (here, Jason Heath's blog, ???) once put together photos/videos of first-rate players' German bow holds: not only the Streicher and Karr styles mentioned above (and their variants) but also straight fingered (with pressure from the thumb), curve fingered, bow angled Viennese style, sitting New Dutch style. If I understand correctly what the OP is saying, I've seen some of the LA Phil players use this "palming" technique and it's very effective.

Still, as Dennis Trembly once said to me, playing German bow is a never ending evolution. So, good luck!

Louis

[Andrew McGregor]

Stick with it, that technique works. The main thing is that it not be forced; keep practising, eventually it'll start to just happen, and in the mean while don't sweat it too much. Like vibrato, it will come eventually.

I'm not surprised the LA Phil use it... there's quite a lot of Russian influence on the west coast. I was taught this way, my teacher came from Kiev originally.

[mheintz]

Originally Posted by LouisF

Somebody somewhere (here, Jason Heath's blog, ???) once put together photos/videos of first-rate players' German bow holds: not only the Streicher and Karr styles mentioned above (and their variants) but also straight fingered (with pressure from the thumb), curve fingered, bow angled Viennese style, sitting New Dutch style. If I understand correctly what the OP is saying, I've seen some of the LA Phil players use this "palming" technique and it's very effective.

Still, as Dennis Trembly once said to me, playing German bow is a never ending evolution. So, good luck!

Louis

Robert Oppelt: http://www.robertoppelt.com/page8.html

[Hank Hirsh]

i am sure he knows what he is talking about. i am asking you guys if i understand correctly. it seems counterintuitive to me to be extending the hand on down bow as i am pulling and gripping in up bow motion, pulling the frog toward the palm of my hand.
is that what it is?

[Hank Hirsh]

Originally Posted by mheintz

It's hard to know what the problem is without some further explanation. There are two general schools of thought on German bow playing: more fixed wrist and more flexible wrist. Gary and some of the NY Phil players play with a more fixed wrist. Folks from the Streicher school play with a more flexible wrist. Of course, many of the players in the Streicher school also use the technique of holding the bow with their first finger on top of the stick, which hold allows for more wrist flexibility. If you want more info on Streicher, perhaps check out David Ruby's forum on talkbass.

Now about finger movement, the basic concept of finger movement on the German bow is not too dissimilar from French bow in that the hand acts like a relaxed spring. You'll see players that move their fingers in both the more fixed wrist school and the more flexible wrist school, the latter generally having more movement. However, in my opinion, in either school, the movement does not start from the fingers but from the shoulder and back or for smaller strokes, the forearm. The fingers and wrist are byproducts of the larger muscle movement. So if you keep a relaxed hand and focus on a relaxed even stroke throughout the bow, you will necessarily move the fingers.

On the German bow, I find that the movement is a product of letting the weight of your shoulder, upper arm and forearm transfer through to your thumb. The thumb and hand will move as you transfer your weight to the bow and move in the up bow or down bow direction. When you "pull" the bow on down bow, your hand will probably extend a bit, and when you "push" the bow on up bow, your hand will compress a bit. The movement may be subtle. Note again that the movement is the result of the stroke starting from the shoulders and back. If you are forcing the movement, then you probably won't have a smooth stroke. To use a sports analogy, the snap of the wrist at the end of punch is a product of one movement beginning with the larger muscles; one doesn't throw the punch and then snap the wrist as a discrete movement.

I play both bows and to me, the two are surprisingly similar in that, in both, the hand acts as a relaxed spring, although the movement of the hand is perhaps more visible on French bow and flexible wrist German bow players.

(By the way, by "flexible," I don't mean to say that more flexible is better than more fixed. I actually play with a more fixed wrist because I feel that I can better transfer my weight through my arm. Your mileage may vary.)

That's my two cents. Perhaps you can give us more information.

if i start in down bow position, with my frog close to the fleshy part of my palm, than as i begin the stroke my hand should extend? then, as i "push" away in up bow i grip the bow so that the frog is closer to the palm of my hand?
is it possible to have such motion when playing faster passages, or is this pretty much only for long tones?
i see that there are many ways to hold the German bow. i am feeling like the frog on my bow is slightly large for my hand. thank you for posting that page showing all the different takes on the grip. it is at once helpful and confusing. i am not sure what i should be doing. my teacher, an accomplished player is insistent upon my using his grip and it is not comfortable for my hand with my bow. i want to be a good student so i am trying to grasp (pun) what he is talking about and experiencing frustration. i will keep at it.

[neilG]

Originally Posted by Hank Hirsh

...is that what it is?

Yes, but that's different than what you described in your first post which I would consider a flaw in technique. The wrist/fingers anticipate the motion in both directions which makes the bow move toward and from the palm. The bow should not tilt as you change direction on the same string.

[Hank Hirsh]

so, the bow should remain flat on the string being played? not inverted on down and everted on up bow? are there also different takes on that?
thanks
hank

[mheintz]

You should be able to keep the amount of hair on the string constant. Generally, when you are practicing and trying to get a nice round tone, that means flat hair. When you are playing music, you may use less hair on particular notes to get a different sound, but this should not be dependent on whether you are playing up-bow or down-bow.

The frog on your bow (unless it's a rather strange bow) shouldn't be so big as to be uncomfortable to hold. So perhaps it is how you are holding the bow. Your teacher will be the best guide.

When you say "with my frog close to the fleshy part of my palm", it's not clear to me exactly where you mean. As you can see from Mr. Oppelt's pictures, most of the positions do not have the frog deep in the palm. See, for instance, his preferred hold (#11). The frog is closer to where the fingers join the hand.

And yes, depending on your grip, you may notice more or less movement of the bow even on shorter strokes. Again, I wouldn't focus so much on moving my fingers, but rather relaxing the hand and bowing from the shoulder and back through the forearm. If your hand is relaxed and focused on the string, the movement will come.

You said that this seems counterintuitive to you, but that's perhaps because you are focusing on moving the bow with your fingers rather than reacting to the movement in the arm. Try taking a glass in your right hand and loosely holding the glass with your fingers loosely touching the side and your thumb on the rim. Now try pulling the glass using your arm (not your hand) with your thumb as the contact point at which you drag the glass; if your hand is relaxed, it will extend when you pull (down-bow) and compress when you push (up-bow). It's perfectly natural. This is, perhaps, not the greatest example, but it's what I happen to have at hand.

This is probably a problem best fixed by your teacher, but perhaps you could post photos of your grip and your posture with the bow on the string.

[Andrew McGregor]

You should be aiming to get complete control over how much of the hair is in contact at any one time, and usually that stays fairly constant through a note (unless the dynamic changes a lot in that time, for example).

Part of the trick with bow holds is to get to the point where the bow feels like part of your arm, and you're really thinking more about the contact point than anything else.

[Eli_Upright12]

Are you maybe talking about Bow Planes? Where you tilt the bow so that you can more effectively bow the string.

[Hank Hirsh]

You said that this seems counter intuitive to you, but that's perhaps because you are focusing on moving the bow with your fingers rather than reacting to the movement in the arm. Try taking a glass in your right hand and loosely holding the glass with your fingers loosely touching the side and your thumb on the rim. Now try pulling the glass using your arm (not your hand) with your thumb as the contact point at which you drag the glass; if your hand is relaxed, it will extend when you pull (down-bow) and compress when you push (up-bow). It's perfectly natural. This is, perhaps, not the greatest example, but it's what I happen to have at hand.

your glass analogy works for me. thanks. i broke three glasses trying it.
h