Mozart 35 discussion

[Blakewdm]

Maybe it's meant like othello the board game, a minute to learn, a lifetime to master

[kurt muroki]

Originally Posted by DC Bass

"Three days?"

Please be so kind as to remember that our yellow sun affords you Kyptonians "enhanced abilities".

Respectfully,

Joe



PS: Unless you were talking about Venus...then it wouldn't even be one day!

Yep! 3 days. If practiced correctly! Ive seen it done. So how do we normally approach a piece like this? Read it through, then practice it slowly, then speed up the metronone? Well that works but is not the most efficient method. How would you practice it if you had to play it perfectly in 3 days? What might be a more efficient way of practicing?

[kurt muroki]

Ok so im definitely not saying to do it in 3 days, just that there are efficient methods of practice as well as inefficient methods. When we are limited in time, we get creative with our practice in order to learn what we need to in a short amount of time. All practice should be efficient. As far as mozart 35... An efficient method of practice is to make sure that each note is important. Each note has a beginning and end. Correct repetition is also important in this method. So start with one note, then play two, then 3. Always start on the 1st note. Keep going till every note is played in the passage or excerpt. Then play the whole thing through complete. Then start on the 2nd note and play till the end. Then start on the 3rd note... Etc etc etc. till every note has a beginning. Every note has and end. You can memorize a movement In one day this way. Ive seen 35 played perfectly with hard work and this method in 3 days.

Really efficiency is all we need to learn quickly. Wasting time in the practice room is what we do most of the time. I am very guilty of this as well. What we consider good practicing usually leaves us feeling like we are in a prison. Good practice frees us up and allows the music to breathe.

[crowsmengegus]

Originally Posted by kurt muroki

So start with one note, then play two, then 3. Always start on the 1st note. Keep going till every note is played in the passage or excerpt. Then play the whole thing through complete. Then start on the 2nd note and play till the end. Then start on the 3rd note...

Very interesting, I've never tried this. You're saying to do this at essentially full tempo from the beginning?

One similar thing I have heard recommended is to start from the end of the lick and work backward in pieces, so that somehow you increase your comfort as you move through the lick (assumption being that hard passages are often easier to start than they are to finish).

Completely true about wasting time though; I feel like I only make improvement when I spend a lot of time practicing, and I'm sure it's because I'm very inefficient.

[DC Bass]

Originally Posted by kurt muroki

Ok so im definitely not saying to do it in 3 days, just that there are efficient methods of practice as well as inefficient methods. When we are limited in time, we get creative with our practice in order to learn what we need to in a short amount of time. All practice should be efficient. As far as mozart 35... An efficient method of practice is to make sure that each note is important. Each note has a beginning and end. Correct repetition is also important in this method. So start with one note, then play two, then 3. Always start on the 1st note. Keep going till every note is played in the passage or excerpt. Then play the whole thing through complete. Then start on the 2nd note and play till the end. Then start on the 3rd note... Etc etc etc. till every note has a beginning. Every note has and end. You can memorize a movement In one day this way. Ive seen 35 played perfectly with hard work and this method in 3 days.

Really efficiency is all we need to learn quickly. Wasting time in the practice room is what we do most of the time. I am very guilty of this as well. What we consider good practicing usually leaves us feeling like we are in a prison. Good practice frees us up and allows the music to breathe.

First of all Kurt, my earlier poor attempt at humor aside, thank you so much for taking the time to offer your insight here- not just on this thread, but on Talkbass in general. Having people with your ability is one thing, having people with that level who are willing to share their knowlege is a whole 'nother thing.

THANKS!!!

Everything above is great council. It also reminds me of something a really good conductor said to us- "Every downbeat, all is forgiven"- meaning if you totally botch one measure- don't let it prevent you from entering the next one. This was a community orchestra- I understand that pro groups can expect a lot more from their players- but the sentiment sounds familiar to your practice advice.

Nameste,

Joe

[Phil Rowan]

Originally Posted by crowsmengegus

Very interesting, I've never tried this. You're saying to do this at essentially full tempo from the beginning?

Yup, the thing about this is to play every single note, one by one incrementally and in time, as if you were about to play the whole thing (correct me if I'm wrong, Kurt). I've done this with some pieces and it's pretty gnarly because it basically means that by the end, you've played through the whole piece many, many times. It's the same idea and goal as the method you mention.. to kind of suss out what was at first seen as a difficult part of (or the whole thing) a piece or passage/excerpt.

[Blakewdm]

What does Boromir think?

[DC Bass]

LOL!

[crowsmengegus]

Well, the concert was a long time ago, but I finally got a hold of a recording of the concert. So, for your amusement, Haffner (4th movement):

http://soundcloud.com/crowsmen/haffner-4th-mvmt

Edit: 1:55 for the "snake"....

[elberon]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

crows,

Take the first lick and run it Zimmerman style, with closed notes- D A D across the top three strings. Run the bowing pattern for the extended shape slowly, building as you become comfortable. Check out Hal's fingering. It works, obviously. Just work on the string crossing and articulation with the right hand. If you can't put the bow in the right place at the right time, the left hand can't help a bit.

Find a fingering that works for you at a bright tempo and stick to it. Check your pitch often, record yourself constantly, and be honest with yourself.

Regarding *how* to shed...

Spend most of your time on the hard parts. If you have two glasses of water and you try to fill them, the empty one will always take more time to fill than the half empty one.

Sorry for the bass yoda vibe.

Hi,

First time poster here. Could someone point me to Hal Robinson's fingerings for this? I've seen his you tube excerpt class and it looks as though he's performing it essentially in one extended position across the A, D, and G strings. It's kind of hard to see at the speed he takes and the quality of the video. This forum is an awesome resource. Wish I would have found it earlier! Thanks!

[mattgray]

Originally Posted by elberon

Hi,

First time poster here. Could someone point me to Hal Robinson's fingerings for this? I've seen his you tube excerpt class and it looks as though he's performing it essentially in one extended position across the A, D, and G strings. It's kind of hard to see at the speed he takes and the quality of the video. This forum is an awesome resource. Wish I would have found it earlier! Thanks!

Keep in mind that video was from a long time ago... in any case the point of playing it across three strings is to eliminate the shift from first to third position (at least in the scale - I don't recollect what he does for arpeggiated D major - e minor - A major bit). It's just another way of playing it between a rock and a hard place...

[elberon]

Thanks, it's a case of pick your poison, shifts or string crossings I guess. With a german bow the shift from "e" on the "a" string to "c#" on the "g" string can really be challenging at a fast speed. Just to be clear we're discussing the 4th mvt. mm. 9-24. Appreciate your response!

Jamie

[chicagodoubler]

elberon,

The German bow is only an issue with string crossing if you haven't worked enough on string crossing.

Moving the bow between the 4 strings is one of the essential challenges of the instrument, and IMO, should be a substantial chunk of our daily practice.I personally devote about half an hour every day to Zimmerman and Sevcik.

[eerbrev]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

elberon,

The German bow is only an issue with string crossing if you haven't worked enough on string crossing.

Moving the bow between the 4 strings is one of the essential challenges of the instrument, and IMO, should be a substantial chunk of our daily practice.I personally devote about half an hour every day to Zimmerman and Sevcik.

I use the streicher "roll" between strings, adjusting my bow angle to make the change between strings easier. what do you do to make your string changes easier?

eerbrev

[chicagodoubler]

There are no secrets.
-Cheng Man Ch'ing

You get up early in the morning and you work all day. That's the only secret.
-Philip Glass


There are a handful of problems we must adress on the bass, like intonation, shifting, string crossing, vibrato... If you want to play the bass well, you should make working on these issues an integral part of your everyday practice. If you find that what you are doing isn't adequate, make it more efficient. Consult with a teacher. Repeat, play your gigs, grow old, be nice to the little people.

My sardonic bs aside, think about which part of your arm is involved in the crossing. How does the weight of the bow change in your hand when you change strings? Are you starting all your down-bows from the treble side, and the up-bows from the bass side? Are you using your fingers enough? Are you using your fingers too much? Are you trying too hard to do what you can't do beautifully yet?

[elberon]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

elberon,

The German bow is only an issue with string crossing if you haven't worked enough on string crossing.

True enough Chicago. I really do often boil passages like this down to string crossings once I devise fingerings that I think will work. I'll do this until I can play the string crossings cleanly and then add the left hand. I've already done this with various parts of the Mozart 35, 4th mvt.

Just looking to play it better for no reason other than to improve. Didn't mean to imply that use of the German bow itself was the essence of the difficulty. I'll admit that I haven't yet committed to breaking down the fingering across strings (in one position) that I mentioned. I will put it through this process before I make a decision on what works for me. Thanks for the suggestions, they're appreciated.